Author Topic: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside  (Read 22435 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« on: July 09, 2008, 05:00:00 AM »
JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside



Renderings of JEA's Greenland Energy Center, a proposed $600 million natural gas plant.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/837

BridgeTroll

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 07:28:33 AM »
Natural gas is cleaner than coal... perhaps we can drill for it in the Gulf of Mexico rather than importing.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

ChrisG

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 11:48:39 AM »
I believe Natural Gas comes from Texas via Pipeline with Booster stations every 600 miles, Florida Gas Transmission (used to be a affiliated with Enron?), not sure if they would be the supplier.

Bike Jax

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 12:06:20 PM »
$600 million buys about 40,000 houses solar panels. That combined with the purchase of the excess energy those homes generated each month. Would we really need this plant built then? How about a nice park instead.

jacksonvilleconfidential

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 12:08:45 PM »
Exactly Bike.
Sarcastic and Mean Spirited

BridgeTroll

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 12:20:21 PM »
$600 million buys about 40,000 houses solar panels. That combined with the purchase of the excess energy those homes generated each month. Would we really need this plant built then? How about a nice park instead.

Perhaps... It will produce 553 MW of electricity... How much will 600 mil of solar panels on houses generate.  I am all for it if they are equal.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2008, 01:15:16 PM »
The average cost of PV (solar) systems is about $9-$10 per watt (according to this source: http://www.solar-electric.com/solar_system_costs.htm).  That number sounds really low and has to include state and/or federal incentives but we'll go with it.

To get 553 MW of solar power it would cost about $5.53 million.

The site referenced above also states that a PV system for the average household would cost about $40,000.

$600 million could therefore provide PV systems for 15,000 homes.


How many homes are ther in Jax?

rjp2008

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2008, 01:27:27 PM »
South Florida builds a huge solar plant, Jax is going for natural gas. Oh well.

Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 01:33:35 PM »
An actual solar array is much more expensive to build than a natural gas plant.  I can't speak for the maintenance though.  At first thought, a solar array would be cheaper to maintain but there are still gobs of mechanics, necessary cleaning, and replacement of pricey panels.  Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage. 

Doctor_K

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2008, 01:40:11 PM »
Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage. 
Based solely on that, it makes the fact that they're building one in South Florida seem kind of silly.  Furthermore, the fact that they're not building one here is even more absurd.  Southern Florida has much more exposure to hurricanes than northern Florida. 

I'm sure there's plenty more to it.  Maybe Natural Gas is still the cheaper and more viable alternative for the market?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 01:44:18 PM by Doctor_K »
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."  -- Albert Einstein

Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 01:57:47 PM »
It offers more bang for the buck right now, definitely.  But solar power technology is getting cheaper by the day and it will only be a matter of time before every household in America is enjoying its potential, IMO.

Another thing to consider with solar and the numbers I shared above is that those figures assumed a straight PV system without batteries.  In other words, when the sun goes down at night the panels produce no power.  That is where JEA comes in and makes up the difference.  Theoretically, during the day when your panels are pumping out the power, the excess "juice" is fed back to JEA thereby turning your meter backwards.  At night when JEA starts feeding the power back to you the meter turns forwards again.  Hopefully the solar system has given enough power to the power company during the day and will simply be taking it back at night and you won't be billed for nightly power consumption. 

If you add batteries to your home based PV system you'll be increasing the cost substantially but at the same time nearly eliminating the need for a connection to JEA.

Now, a HUGE benefit of solar power (especially in Florida) is that when a hurricane does come through you will have emergency power automatically without keeping the neighbors up all night with a noisy generator that you can't get gas for anyways.  That, of course, assumes that the storm didn't damage the panels.

Today, PV systems are a luxury but tomorrow they will likely be a necessity.

BridgeTroll

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 02:50:33 PM »
Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage. 

I'm sure there's plenty more to it.  Maybe Natural Gas is still the cheaper and more viable alternative for the market?
That is in fact the case... add reliability to the mix and there really is not an alternative.  I am all for private solar panels and even more likely mounting panels on federal and state facilities.  The rooftops of warehouses, malls, etc would be perfect places for large arrays of panels.

I think the physical footprint of a solar plant would be much larger than a conventional plant also... I would hate to see the countryside covered in mirrors...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 08:45:27 AM »
^ I think you could be right about at solar array taking up more physical space.

Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 09:04:40 AM »
Here are some images of power company scale Solar systems...


Quote


Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT

Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Concentrating photovoltaics, in which light is focused on solar cells that generate electricity, is being considered by utilities as well. The technology has been around for many years, but a number of companies are trying to improve on it with higher levels of light concentration and cheaper manufacturing.

This artist's rendering shows a concentrating photovoltaic CarouSol system from start-up GreenVolts, which has paired with PG&E to build 2 megawatts in Tracy, Calif., by the end of 2008.

Each CarouSol includes an array of power units on a platform rotating on two axes to follow the sun in the sky. Mirrors on the units concentrate the energy of 625 suns onto the solar cells, according to the company. The modular, snap-together systems sit close to the ground to keep maintenance simple. Tests have shown the CarouSol to withstand winds of 43 miles per hour. It's also supposed to provide energy at half the cost of more traditional systems.


Credit: GreenVolts





Quote


Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT

Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Concentrating solar power systems can lower the cost per kilowatt-hour with lenses, mirrors, dishes, and tracking systems to improve energy output. Concentrating photovoltaic systems from SolFocus, shown here, use lenses or mirrors to focus sunlight onto high-efficiency cells. They can convert up to 40 percent of light into electricity, according to the company. And such installations could reach utility scale of 5 to 50 megawatts or more.

Solar concentrators are increasingly being explored for large, centralized solar farms where land is ample. SolFocus is building a 3-megawatt solar plant in the south of Spain at Castilla LaMancha.


Credit: SolFocus






Quote


Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT

Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Flat photovoltaic panels arguably have a lead on solar thermal power plant installations.

Although not used by a utility, this 14-megawatt farm provides up to one-fourth of the electricity at Nellis Air Force Base. The project involves equipment made by SunPower and is financed by MMA Renewable Ventures. Tracking systems moving the panels to face the direction of the sun are built to boost electrical output by one-third. Currently the largest U.S. solar electric installation, the Nevada plant comprises more than 72,000 panels and 140 acres.

Five SunPower systems owned by General Electric Energy Financial Services are set to generate 8 megawatts in California by the end of 2008. And Duke Energy recently signed on to build a 15-megawatt plant with flat solar PV panels, which would be the biggest. Unlike a rooftop solar panel installation, these panels have mounting systems that track the sun during the day.


Credit: MMA Renewable Ventures/SunPower



Clearly, it takes more area to produce power using PV systems than it does to produce the same power via natural gas reactors.



Jason

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Re: JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 09:09:13 AM »
Quote
This artist's rendering shows a concentrating photovoltaic CarouSol system from start-up GreenVolts, which has paired with PG&E to build 2 megawatts in Tracy, Calif., by the end of 2008.


Quote
Currently the largest U.S. solar electric installation, the Nevada plant comprises more than 72,000 panels and 140 acres.



140 acres to produce 14 MW!?!  Man, at that rate it would take 5,530 acres of solar panels to produce the 553 MW that JEA's new plant will produce.