Author Topic: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City  (Read 4828 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« on: July 07, 2008, 04:00:00 AM »
Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City



Last month, JTA released maps showing initial locations for potential commuter rail stations.  A lack of focus on Jacksonville's inner city communities stands out as a major oversight.  The following list contains a few areas where urban rail stations should not be avoided.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/835

billy

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 11:11:46 AM »
Springfield Warehouse District is a cool place.
What about the old rail that went over to east Union Street/

thelakelander

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 11:20:49 AM »
The old F&J is not a part of the three commuter rail routes chosen for the study, but it has potential in that we could build an inner city rail loop that would start downtown, hit a few Northside neighborhoods (S-Line/Shands) before heading south towards the Stadium District and running on Bay or Water Street to get back to the Prime Osborn.  Ock has mentioned it on several occassions throughout the past year or two.  It could also be a solution similar to Charlotte's where light rail and streetcars use the same line.  The streetcars make shorter stops, while the light rail line makes limited stops in the same area.

Caltrain in the Bay Area also runs a similar styled service with commuter rail trains.  Some trains stop at stations spaced a mile a part, while a Baby Bullet service travels at a higher speed, stopping at a select few station locations between Downtown and the suburbs.

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Traveller

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 11:36:59 AM »
A stop at NAS should be a no-brainer.  I don't see the point in a Timuquana Road station unless it serves as a destination for a bus route along 103rd/Timuquana.  Plus, a station at the Yorktown Gate would serve the new warehouse/industrial park developing at that intersection, as well as provide pedestrian or bike access to Tillie Fowler Park.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 11:40:00 AM »
The more I study it the more I'm convinced the way to go is with streetcar from Gateway Mall - 21St St Station - straight south to the old Union Street Warehouse - Beaver - Newnan - Water - Union Station

Then:

Some form of LRT or standard DMU or Commuter Rail from Yulee - Airport - 21St St. - Shands - Union Station

In this plan we get two modes to grow with, plus 21St becomes a vital junction Station, Park and Ride, and retail/residential attraction.


Ocklawaha

thelakelander

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 12:04:41 PM »
The only negative with 21st is the warehouse district and New Springfield remain blighted, due to them being cut off from the station by MLK Parkway.  So we get the rail, with less ability to economically revitalize an ideal section of the urban grid.


The red circle indicates 1/4 mile walk radius from station centerpoint.  JTA's maps indicate warehouse district station at Main.  I'm shifting it over to the large S-Line ROW between Market and Liberty Streets.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 12:07:43 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
A stop at NAS should be a no-brainer.  I don't see the point in a Timuquana Road station unless it serves as a destination for a bus route along 103rd/Timuquana.  Plus, a station at the Yorktown Gate would serve the new warehouse/industrial park developing at that intersection, as well as provide pedestrian or bike access to Tillie Fowler Park.

A station should be located at both places. Remember there is no rule that EVERY train must stop at the station. But access to 103Rd for Bus Transit, as well as the base of Ortega, is just as vital to good transit health as a stop at Yukon.

YUKON?

Yes! It has a name, had a Post Office, is still on the railroad map as YUKON. The depot sat in front of the Main Gate of NAS. The area that is now a park, was once a busy little town. Crossing the tracks a bit north of the Main Gate will bring one into a virtual Ghost town. Only the pub, restaurant and tiny church survive. The church came from Black Point out on the River where NAS is today. It was moved when the Army took over the land in WWI. The Yukon Depot itself also survives, high and dry, somewhat altered and repainted. It is about 1/4 mile South of Orange Park Mall, on the left (EAST) side of Blanding. The Navy closed out the town in the 1960's as a flight hazard, then gave the land to Jacksonville for a park. In the early year of WWII, it is said there were Submarine Nests directly West of Yukon, in the Ortega River. Well hidden, it would explain a bunch of piles in the water and the extreme depth. Here is a shot of YUKON's, Dewey Park Housing neighborhood in 1940... Imagine, we play Tennis and baseball there today!





OCKLAWAHA




Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 12:12:01 PM »
Agree Lake, The trouble is the Streetcar, IF it were built that way, would not access the Liberty Street Station. But the Commuter Rail Could. There is no rule that should wipe out one or the other, in fact with a Jersey River Line, San Diego, or Austin type DMU, both stops + shands should be built.

Further, this is URBAN JACKSONVILLE, JTA could hardly expect stations 1-2 miles apart in the core. Past 21St street Northbound that Commuter Train could fly. The streetcar itself might reach 45 or 50 to Gateway on that NW angle, depending on a stop at North Main.


Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 12:19:23 PM »
BTW, Norfolk Southern works the line daily... but only ONE JOB. Meaning nothing else uses the line. They go in in the lazy late AM and are out by 1-3PM daily.

The crews say the Train Master is looking for another job to come online if and when something is done at the port terminals... coal or container fuss.


Derail, does just what it says and they protect 1,000's of miles of track from roll-aways or run-throughs.

Meanwhile, I did the birds eye and hoofed it, it IS POSSIBLE to come up from Beaver, pass through the old Springfield Yard and enter the 21St St Station with only ONE AT GRADE CROSSING. That would be the NS just behind Swisher. Signals, and a DERAIL set against either line during off hours would protect the Light Rail or Streetcars.


Ocklawaha
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 12:21:14 PM by Ocklawaha »

thelakelander

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 12:19:56 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YUKON?

Yes! It has a name, had a Post Office, is still on the railroad map as YUKON. The depot sat in front of the Main Gate of NAS. The area that is now a park, was once a busy little town. Crossing the tracks a bit north of the Main Gate will bring one into a virtual Ghost town. Only the pub, restaurant and tiny church survive. The church came from Black Point out on the River where NAS is today. It was moved when the Army took over the land in WWI. The Yukon Depot itself also survives, high and dry, somewhat altered and repainted. It is about 1/4 mile South of Orange Park Mall, on the left (EAST) side of Blanding. The Navy closed out the town in the 1960's as a flight hazard, then gave the land to Jacksonville for a park. In the early year of WWII, it is said there were Submarine Nests directly West of Yukon, in the Ortega River. Well hidden, it would explain a bunch of piles in the water and the extreme depth. Here is a shot of YUKON's, Dewey Park Housing neighborhood in 1940... Imagine, we play Tennis and baseball there today!
OCKLAWAHA

Wow.  I never knew Yukon was a town with buildings on that side of the tracks.  I always assumed it was just a rail stop next to the base.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 12:27:57 PM »
BTW, Norfolk Southern works the line daily... but only ONE JOB. Meaning nothing else uses the line. They go in in the lazy late AM and are out by 1-3PM daily.

The crews say the Train Master is looking for another job to come online if and when something is done at the port terminals... coal or container fuss.


Derail, does just what it says and they protect 1,000's of miles of track from roll-aways or run-throughs.

Meanwhile, I did the birds eye and hoofed it, it IS POSSIBLE to come up from Beaver, pass through the old Springfield Yard and enter the 21St St Station with only ONE AT GRADE CROSSING. That would be the NS just behind Swisher. Signals, and a DERAIL set against either line during off hours would protect the Light Rail or Streetcars.


Ocklawaha

NS is expecting a new job at the old paper mill site, if the lawsuit between Keystone and Jaxport is ever cleared up.  Keystone wants to turn the site into a coal terminal and the port wants it to expand its container operation I believe.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 12:36:04 PM »
Dating myself again, but yes, it was quite extensive. I had some little friends when I was quite small that lived there. We lived in Ortega, and Dad was a Navy Exchange Officer. I don't remember who they were or how I met them today, but I do remember what seemed like miles of concrete "T" posts between the back yards for clothes lines.

I also recall a narrow one lane brick highway with tiny concrete curbs near the track in the NE of the old Post Office. It might still be there. Mr. Willis Butts a local Millionaire, and lifetime resident said it was remains of the "Old Orange Park Highway". I can't figure where it came over the tracks North of Yukon, if that is true.


Ocklawaha

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 12:38:10 PM »
NS is pulling hard for the Coal deal, but I think they'd do well either way as long as we don't cut them out of the loading zone for containers as is our history.

Ocklawaha

Lunican

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2008, 04:32:00 PM »
By the way, this exact plan was created by Metro Jacksonville in December 2006.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/272/

tufsu1

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Re: Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2008, 10:49:28 PM »
$400,000...the difference is they have the hard data (socioeconomic data, traffic forecasts, etc.) to back up the recommendations....all of which are necessary to get state and/or federal $