Author Topic: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret  (Read 12552 times)

Murder_me_Rachel

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2016, 08:24:54 AM »

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2016, 09:56:16 AM »
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/five-ways-the-fdas-new-regulations-with-transform-the-vaping-industry-e-cigarettes

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Five Ways the FDA's New Regulations Will Transform the Vaping Industry
 
Written by
KALEIGH ROGERS
May 5, 2016 // 03:50 PM EST

Dear vapers: you probably want to stock up on your favorite juice flavors, because under the new Food and Drug Administration regulations, they may not be around much longer.

The vaping industry was prepared for the FDA’s final rules governing the manufacturing and sale of e-cigarettes, e-liquid, and other vaping products, which were released Thursday. Now, as companies start poring over the new rules to figure out exactly what is required, it’s quickly becoming apparent that the market is about to undergo significant changes. That’s not necessarily a bad thing: most of the the FDA rules are common sense and actually supported by the industry, like banning the sale of e-cigarettes to youth under the age of 18 and requiring childproof packaging on e-liquids. But it also means every vaping product must be registered through an expensive, time-consuming process called a Premarket Tobacco Application (PMTA) that will cost some companies millions, and push others out of business.

Good or bad, the vaping industry is about to look very different. Here are five ways the new rules will transform the vaping industry:

1) Prices will go up

It’s still too early to say exactly how much prices might be affected, but it’s likely the companies whose products remain on the market will have to bump up prices a bit. The FDA estimates the PMTA process will require 1,500 hours per product (that’s every flavor and every nicotine level of e-liquid). Further, the process will cost “several hundred thousand” dollars per application, according to Mitch Zeller the director of the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products. The cost of registering multiple flavors of e-liquid will almost certainly trickle down to the consumer.

“That’s always a possibility,” said Jamie Zichterman, the owner of Mitten Vapors, a small e-liquid manufacturer based in Michigan. Zichterman said the company’s lawyer is reviewing the new regulations to prepare to start filing PMTAs.

“It’s like anything else. When you get a pizza one day and it’s a couple more dollars, it’s because the cost of cheese went up,” Zichterman told me over the phone. “If it’s the cost of doing business, sadly we’ll have to [raise prices]. But we’ll try to be as economical as possible.”

2) Selection will go down

As expensive as PMTAs will be to file, many companies simply won’t be able to justify the cost and will shutter. The FDA estimates it will only receive about 750 PMTAs each year and since companies only have the next two years to apply for their existing products, that works out to about 1,500 PMTAs. Keep in mind these are per product, not per company, and the FDA estimates there are more than 4,000 vape manufacturers in the US.

Keep in mind that most manufacturers produce dozens of flavors and nicotine levels. Take Apollo E-cigs, a popular manufacturer: it makes 12 different varieties just in its fruit flavor category, each with five different nicotine level options. Just to keep making all of its fruit flavors, Apollo would need to file 60 different PMTAs.

While the FDA said it will be looking for ways to reduce this impact—such as letting manufacturers file one PMTA for multiple flavors—it’s inevitable that the market will shrink from thousands of flavors and products to fewer than 2,000 in the next few years. Manufacturers will be able to keep applying for new products in the future, but it will take a long time to crawl back to where we started out.

3) Custom mods will go extinct

If you’re not a vaper, you might think all electronic cigarettes are created equal, but there is a ton of variety for ways to get your vape on. You are probably familiar with the cig-a-like e-cigarettes sold at gas stations, which look like cigarettes, are completely sealed, and are disposable. But most vapers use vape pens or mods, which are reusable and can be customizable, allowing vapers to build their own unique units to their specifications.

Under the new FDA regulations, companies that sell the separate hardware vapers currently use to build their mods face a major headache trying to register all of the different parts. The regulations state that manufacturers will need to prove that every possible configuration of the different parts would still make a safe product, and notes that the “FDA expects that it may be difficult for manufacturers to make the showing necessary to meet the statutory standard, given the great extent of possible variations in combinations of hardware components.” The regulations even discourage manufacturers from trying, and suggest only applying for closed-system models that are not customizable.

"We can’t make policy at a national population level on the basis of hypothetical individuals."
4) A black market for vaping will emerge

The internet is a big place and there are lots of other countries that don’t have vaping regulation pumping out e-liquid flavors. Though these products are, understandably, questionable, some vapers may opt to risk it if their favorite US-made flavors start disappearing. DIY juice makers might also start selling under the table to help fill the gap, and you can imagine the market for beloved flavors and mod parts that go extinct. There’s no good scientific data on this question, but an informal poll of 1,651 readers on one vaping blog in the UK found that 66 percent said they would buy e-liquid on a black market if there was a ban, and it’s been discussed in the online vaping community many times as regulation loomed. If people can find a way to buy guns and drugs online, they can definitely find a way to get their e-juice.

5) We will finally start getting some more vaping research

There’s been lots of studies on the effects of vaping, on vaping as a tool to quit smoking, on teens’ vaping habits—enough for public health agencies in other parts of the world to start embracing the technology. But the FDA isn’t satisfied with any of the evidence so far, and that may well be a good thing for the industry. There’s still a lot we don’t know about vaping’s personal and public health costs and benefits, because it just hasn’t been around long enough for the experts to find out. Now that the FDA is tasked with regulating and monitoring the industry, it has already launchedseveral surveys and studies to start collecting data on this front.

“We can’t make policy at a national population level on the basis of hypothetical individuals or anecdotal reports of benefit,” said Zeller, of the Center for Tobacco Products, during a press conference. “We need to have enough evidence at a population level to make this net assessment. Finally these products are under the regulatory jurisdiction of the FDA and over time we will get answers.”

The Royal College of Physicians in the UK recently put out a report calling for vaping to be promoted as a tool to quit smoking. The FDA isn’t there yet, but maybe with more evidence, specifically focused on US vapers, it will get there.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2016, 08:01:18 AM »
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/vaping-helped-an-estimated-61-million-smokers-quit-study-says

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Vaping Helped an Estimated 6.1 Million Smokers Quit, Study Says
 
Written by
KALEIGH ROGERS
June 28, 2016 // 02:30 PM EST

An estimated 6.1 million Europeans have quit smoking by switching to vaping, according to a paper published online this week in Addiction.

Though only an estimation, the study highlights the need for more data on how useful vaping may be as a stop smoking aid. It's especially crucial as new e-cigarette regulations roll out across the EU and the US—rules that some say threaten the entire e-cig industry.

In the paper, researchers did a close analysis of data collected back in 2014 and released last year through the European Commission. It found that only 2 percent of respondents are currently using e-cigarettes, and just 14 percent had been able to quit smoking completely by switching to vaping. However, this included any smoker who had even tried one puff of an e-cigarette (not exactly a sustained effort to quit). In the Addiction paper, the researchers broke down the numbers a little further and found a much more impressive success rate.

When you only look at respondents who were currently using e-cigarettes, 35 percent were former smokers who had successfully quit. And there was a correlation with higher use: Of respondents who vaped daily, 30.6 percent had quit smoking, compared to 8.9 percent of respondents who said they vaped once a week or less.

To put this in perspective, the researchers then extrapolated the representation to the total EU population and estimated 6.1 million people had quit through vaping, and 9.2 million had been able to cut back on smoking by becoming dual users.

Of course, by that same logic, millions of Europeans have tried and failed to quit using e-cigarettes as well, but that’s also true of all smoking cessation tools. Prescription drugs—our most effective stop smoking aid—are about 23 percent effective, while treatments like nicotine patches and gum only work 6 percent of the time.

In the fall, Pfizer representatives told me its stop-smoking drug Chantix had been prescribed to 22 million unique patients around the world since it came on the market. With a 23 percent effectiveness rate, that means an estimated 5 million people will have stopped smoking by taking the drug, putting vaping on par with some of our best smoking cessation technology.

Unfortunately for the vaping evangelists, this kind of analysis has its limitations. The 6 million people is an extrapolated estimate. The survey only interviewed 27,801 people and since it was interview style, it’s all self-reported. As the analysis authors note, “Although surveys and studies of users have shown that many smokers succeed in quitting smoking with the use of e-cigarettes, randomized controlled trials have shown modest effects and the efficacy of e-cigarettes in smoking cessation and reduction has been questioned.”

It’s far from irrefutable proof of some magic, stop-smoking effects of vaping, but the authors argue these indicators show further research needs to be done, and perhaps we need to approach it in a different way than we have in the past.

“It is not reasonable to expect experimentation or occasional use to be substantially effective in smoking cessation,” the authors wrote. “Other surveys fail to differentiate between regular and occasional use or experimentation, which results in overestimation of the prevalence of use and underestimation of their efficacy in smoking substitution.”
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2016, 09:45:29 AM »
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/strict-new-regulations-are-forcing-vapers-to-go-diy

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Strict New Regulations Are Forcing Vapers to Go DIY
 
Written by
KALEIGH ROGERS
STAFF WRITER
July 6, 2016 // 02:35 PM EST

Clive Bates doesn’t vape, but he recently ordered a bottle of 99 percent pure liquid nicotine online from China—the stuff used by DIY vapers to make their own e-liquid at home. Bates, who has a background in government and now runs a blog on public policy, was trying to prove a point: The new regulations in the US and Europe aren’t going to do what they were designed to do.

The new rules were intended to regulate and create a more tightly-controlled market, not to create prohibition. But if consumers can’t get the same products they’ve grown accustomed to legally, they’ll find other workarounds. Overregulation could very likely lead to a blossoming black market that otherwise wouldn’t need to exist.

“The Food and Drug Administration is off in some weird dream world in which they think they control everything,” Bates told me over the phone. “The truth is the consumers control everything.”

Earlier this year, both the European Union and the FDA released official regulations governing which vaping products can be made and sold, and how. Many in the vaping industry have criticized these rules as being too strict and believe the expensive application process now required could drastically reduce the number of products on the market. But many long-term vapers say they’re not worried about their personal habit.

“After trying to figure out a way to quit smoking for so long, and finally seeing success with vaping, there is no way I go back to smoking,” one Redditor told me. “DIY or the black market will be what I go to if I must.”

Bates demonstrated how easy it is to do just that by ordering the nicotine for himself. He wrote that the 10ml bottle he purchased cost $32 including shipping. It arrived in less than a week, and would last a vaper anywhere from three to nine months, depending on how much and how often he or she vaped. Most DIY vapers buy already diluted nicotine because it’s safer to handle and because it’s less likely to get you in trouble. The new EU regulations, for example, prohibit e-liquids with nicotine strength higher than 2 percent. But Bates, who is based in the UK, wanted to show that it’s easy to get your hands on even high concentrations.

“The very strong nicotine liquid is usually regarded as a poison and starts to become covered by regulation, but you don’t have to buy at that full strength,” Bates said. “And the idea that customs officers are going to whip these little bottle out that cost a few dollars and test the strength of them and then take some sort of action accordingly is implausible.”

The rest of the ingredients used to make e-liquids—food grade flavoring, vegetable glycerin, and propylene glycol—are even easier to purchase. These ingredients aren’t regulated under the FDA’s new rules and can be bought legally on site including Amazon. The parts needed to build a vape device are also readily available online.

But it’s the nicotine that’s the clincher, because even diluted it’s a very dangerous chemical to have around the house. It’s flammable, can cause skin or eye irritation, and can be deadly if accidentally ingested. Just a teaspoon of the liquid at a high enough concentration could kill a child, and just a little bit more could kill an adult. When rolling out these rules, the FDA had an idea of a smaller market with a limited selection of tightly controlled products. Instead, it may be opening the door to an entire population of consumers hoarding dangerous chemicals and mixing up liquid drugs in their kitchen sink. There’s no question this industry needed some regulation, but over-regulation may have some unexpected consequences too.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 09:04:05 AM »
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/vaping-regulations-are-now-in-effect-heres-what-that-means-for-vapers

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Vaping Regulations Are Now in Effect, Here’s What that Means for Vapers
 
Written by
KALEIGH ROGERS
August 8, 2016 // 12:05 PM EST

Vape stores and ice cream shops have had one thing in common for years now: free samples. Just like an ice cream shop lets you try a spoonful of any flavor before choosing your double scoop, vape shops often let customers sample e-liquid flavors before buying a full bottle. But those days have officially ended in the US, as the Food and Drug Administration’s regulations on e-cigarettes came into effect Monday.

As of Monday, retailers can no longer give away free samples, sell products in a vending machine (except in adult-only facilities), or tell customers that vaping is less harmful than smoking—even though all of the scientific evidence we have so far shows that it is. This is a major sore spot for lots of vape companies.

“I'm no longer allowed to share the story of our best success: a 65 year old woman who smoked three packs a day for nearly 20 years, who quit smoking and vaping altogether in a little less than six months with the help of electronic cigarettes,” one vendor lamented on Reddit.

It’s also now officially illegal to sell e-cigarettes to minors, although this was already the case at the state level. It took some states longer than others (Montana’s law banning the sale of e-cigarettes to minors only came into effect this year), but every state had already made it illegal to sell vapes to kids, with some states even banning the sale to anyone under 21.

Many in the industry were fully supportive of these age restriction, but as of Monday retailers will also have to verify the age of customers. In a brick-and-mortar shop, that’s as simply as checking the customer’s ID. But for online retailers, it gets more complicated.

“It’s not just ‘check this box if you are above the age of 18,’ it’d be awesome if it was that simple,” Tim Mechling, the assistant brand manager for Mt. Baker Vaping, one of the largest US vaping companies, told me. “We have to do this arduous service called BlueCheck, in which people actually have to take a selfie with their ID and put the last four digits of their social security number, which a lot of our customers are not cool with.”

Mechling told me Mt. Baker introduced this age verification system for customers in California after the law changed to require it, and the company’s sales in that state have since dropped by 50 percent.

“Nobody wants to take that stupid selfie,” he said, noting it was both time consumer and a security concern for some customers.

Regulation in this industry is important and necessary, both to keep the products out of the hands of teens—who are increasingly interested in vaping—and to ensure the safety of the products adults are using. But the industry is worried over-regulation could put up too many barriers and limit the number of smokers who are able to get the harm reduction benefits of vaping.

One of the biggest concerns isn’t these immediate changes, but the long-term ramifications of the new rules. Manufacturers now have two years to file lengthy, expensive paperwork to register their products. Each flavor and nicotine strength of a company’s e-liquid (many companies produce hundreds of flavors and nicotine combinations) has to be registered.

The FDA has relaxed the requirements, now allowing manufacturers to submit all their products under one application, and the agency estimates these applications will cost between $117,000 and $466,000, not the millions it had previously estimated. But it’s still a lengthy and expensive process that many vape businesses simply can’t afford. This means the variety and size of the market is likely to shrink dramatically over the next two years.

There’s a chance that could change if Congress passes a law to amend a date in the deeming regulations that would grandfather-in all the existing vape products. There have been a few bills introduced to do just that, and many in the industry continue to lobby for the change. But for now, everybody must accept the new climate: a stricter, more structured vaping market. And no free samples.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

spuwho

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 11:59:51 AM »
 Vaping does have some health risks.  The delivery of the flavor when the coil is hot is done via glycol. The same stuff used for anti-freeze. Thats why a vape exhale cloud is so large and lasts longer.

Per the EPA:

Ethylene glycol has many uses, including as antifreeze in cooling and heating systems, in hydraulic brake fluids, and as a solvent.  Acute (short-term) exposure of humans to ethylene glycol by ingesting large quantities causes three stages of health effects: central nervous system (CNS) depression, followed by cardiopulmonary effects, and later renal damage.  The only effects noted in one study of individuals exposed to low levels of ethylene glycol by inhalation for about a month were throat and upper respiratory tract irritation.  Rats and mice chronically (long-term) exposed to ethylene glycol in their diet exhibited signs of kidney toxicity and liver effects.  Several studies of rodents exposed orally or by inhalation showed ethylene glycol to be fetotoxic.  An epidemiologic study on renal cancer mortality did not find an increased risk for workers exposed to ethylene glycol.  EPA has not classified ethylene glycol for carcinogenicity.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2019, 08:46:01 AM »
Soooo... Three years after I began this topic...  This shit is scary.  This product is totally unregulated or monitored... especially the THC juice.

https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-of-vape-related-illnesses-and-deaths-2019-9

Quote
The mysterious spate of vape-related deaths and illnesses continues to grow, confounding experts. Here's what officials knew and when.
Jeremy Berke 6m

The mysterious spate of vaping-related illnesses and deaths continues to grow.

On Friday the Center for Disease Control announced that at least 450 possible cases of vape-related illnesses have been reported in 33 states across the US. The illnesses have reportedly claimed at least five lives already, and doctors and other health experts fear their could be more on the way.

"While the investigation is ongoing, CDC has advised that individuals consider not using e-cigarettes, because as of now, this is the primary means of preventing the severe lung disease," Dr. Dana Meaney-Delman of the CDC said on a Friday press call, reports Business Insider's Hilary Brueck.

While it's not yet clear what exactly is causing these illnesses, it seems to affect younger people — mostly men — who are vaporizing cannabinoids like THC.

The culprit, according to some experts, are chemicals like vitamin-E acetate that are used to emulsify THC and CBD in illegal, unregulated vaporizers.

"Even if most lung-injury cases are traced to chemicals used to emulsify THC or CBD into illegal vaping "juices," it doesn't let legally sold, nicotine-based e-cigs off the hook. They must do more to ensure safety of their products by engaging review process and ending youth use," Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the former FDA commissioner, said on Friday.

"Legitimate e-liquids are generally based on chemicals that are water-soluble, not oils that can cause acute lung injury. High levels of vitamin E acetate were found in nearly all cannabis-containing vapes tested by NYS Department of Health. Nobody should use illegal vape products," Gottlieb said.

Here's what officials knew when. We'll update this as more information comes to light:

August 17:

CDC officials say they are actively investigating almost 94 cases of vape-related illnesses in 14 states. That number would grow to 200 cases in 22 states.

Officials haven't yet determined the specific causes of the illness, but it is thought that oils and chemicals used to emulsify THC, CBD, and nicotine in illicit vapes is to blame.

August 23:

The first vape-related death is reported in Illinois.

The person, who has remained unnamed, was hospitalized with severe breathing difficulties, according to officials. He was reportedly using e-cigarettes to consume nicotine.


September 3:

Oregon's Health Authority says it is actively investigating the death of an individual with a severe respiratory illness following the use of an e-cigarette.

While officials have not yet determined the root cause of the middle-aged person's illness, he had reportedly fallen ill after vaporizing marijuana oil purchased at a legal cannabis dispensary, reports The Associated Press.

September 4:

Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the former FDA commissioner, writes an editorial in The Washington Post urging federal officials to take action in investigating the causes of these illnesses and deaths.

"Bright lines must be drawn between less-harmful ingredients and those that cause undue risk. That would arm regulators with the information to crack down on illegal and dangerous vape juices. It's also time to end the political ambivalence that allows THC and CBD to evade oversight," Gottlieb wrote.


September 6:

Indiana health officials confirm a third vape-related death. Shortly afterward, officials in Minnesota confirm a fourth, and then a fifth in California.

Like the other deaths, officials have yet to determine a root cause. However, the 65-year old Minnesota man had a history of lung disease. He fell ill after vaping an "illicit" THC product, The New York Times reports.

September 6:

Acting FDA Chief Ned Sharpless says "Our investigation into the concerning reports of respiratory illness and deaths associated w/ vaping is a top priority for FDA and our federal, state, local health partners. We're working tirelessly to gather and analyze information about these incidents," on Twitter.

Sen. Minority Whip Dick Durbin pushed Sharpless to act quicker in a letter addressed to Sharpless on Friday.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2019, 08:55:55 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0DymNZd1n-0" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0DymNZd1n-0</a>

In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Tacachale

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2019, 02:45:04 PM »
BT, what do you think of the proposed bans?
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2019, 07:34:19 AM »
I think it is clear that stopping the sale of the "juice" cartridges is in order... especially the THC cartridges.  Something in these things is causing severe respiratory distress, damage, and deaths.  The THC market is like the wild west... who tests what is going into the juice?  Who certifies it's safety?  I believe it is... no one.  The drumbeat for years leading to decriminalization and legalization was how safe this stuff is.  The only thing regulating the safety of these products is the growers, the sellers, and the manufacturers.

I was a vaper prior to finally quitting nicotine completely a few years ago.  I cannot confirm nor deny that I may have "experimented" with other forms of vape products at one time or another.  I do not believe either of the products is "harmless".  I firmly believe personal responsibility plays a large role here... the facts are largely unknown EXCEPT that people who use these products are getting very sick and dying from them.  Seems like "Russian Roulette" to me...   :(
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

acme54321

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2019, 03:15:10 PM »
I think people vaping look stupid, but so is smoking, and that kills a whole lot more people.

Tacachale

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2019, 04:27:04 PM »
^That's my issue. I'd hate for there to be an all-out ban on vaping, like what's happening in San Francisco, only to have people go to cigarettes instead. It also increases the chances that there will be a black market, which is perhaps the very worst part of the way we handle drugs currently (and the prohibition of booze before that). The federal ban that's being proposed makes more sense to me - banning the flavored cartridges and cracking down on companies that market to teenagers, not vaping entirely.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Peter Griffin

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2019, 04:40:14 PM »
banning flavored liquids is BS. a lot of these measures are rooted partially in "safety for the consumer" but are really heavily backed by the likes of Juul (owned 35% by Altria, previously known as Phillip Morris of cigarette production fame) who would benefit greatly from a single-use pod system and a near-monopoly because they'll be able to buy the FDA licenses required to sell e-liquids and e-cigs.

now we move to the next phase of vaping: corporate manufacture. neoliberal croney capitalism under the guise of public safety, brought to you by the same people who still manufacture and approve the sale of cigarettes.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2019, 07:58:35 AM »
Lol... If only they were just "flavored liquids"... we all know they aren't.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Vaping's Dirty Little Secret
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2019, 10:16:01 AM »
If you want to understand how crazy the regular human brain is, we freak out over a dozen deaths in a country of 330 million.  Why?  It's unusual.   But the 40,000 deaths by a car year are routine don't get the public freaked out.