Author Topic: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion  (Read 11995 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« on: January 07, 2016, 03:00:06 AM »

Adam White

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 03:36:43 AM »
You can't simulataneously pretend to be upholding democracy while taking unilateral, armed, undemocratic means to do so. Or maybe you can - the irony of this appears to be lost on these guys.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Bridges

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 07:55:46 AM »
It's pretty clear Y'allQaeda's intentions.  They'll continue their Yeehad until they've united our west in a new Cowliphate. 
So I said to him: Arthur, Artie come on, why does the salesman have to die? Change the title; The life of a salesman. That's what people want to see.

I-10east

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 08:08:53 AM »

finehoe

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 09:11:29 AM »
Have you no sympathy for the vast oppression these folks are suffering over being asked to pay a small fee when grazing their animals on public land?

Adam White

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 09:19:42 AM »
Have you no sympathy for the vast oppression these folks are suffering over being asked to pay a small fee when grazing their animals on public land?

That's no way to talk about people who are protecting your Constitutional rights for you!
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Jason

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 09:38:44 AM »
Isn't this "news" article actually an opinion piece?

BridgeTroll

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 09:59:47 AM »
http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/one-oregon-militiamen-valor-thief

Quote
One of the Oregon militiamen guilty of semi-stolen valor, Ranger-style
 by David Nye   - Jan 5, 2016 3:06:59 pm

As everyone watches the event in Oregon, which so far isn’t really a standoff, reporters are trying to figure out who the 12-150 people in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters building are.

Ryan Payne, a former soldier, is among them. He has been a prominent presence in the buildup to the occupation of the buildings in Oregon and claimed to have lead militia snipers who targeted — but didn’t fire on — federal agents during the showdown at the Bundy ranch in Nevada in 2014.

Payne claimed to be a Ranger on internet forums and during interviews early in the Bundy ranch standoff, but it’s been pointed out by a number of stolen valor sites that Payne never earned a tab.

“It’s all in the Ranger handbook,” Payne once said. “The Ranger handbook is like the quintessential fighting man’s story. You know, how to do this—everything to be a fighting guy. And having served in that type of unit, that was my Bible. I carried it around on me everywhere I went.”

The only Ranger-type unit Payne was in was the West Mountain Rangers, a militia that is likely not associated with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Payne did serve in the Army and likely did some awesome stuff as a member of the 18th Airborne Corps Long Range Surveillance Company during the invasion of Iraq. The LRS is comprised of paratroopers who move behind enemy lines and conduct reconnaissance on enemy forces. But any paratrooper knows the difference between being Airborne and being an Airborne Ranger.

The difference is at least two months of grueling training, longer for the 34 percent of graduates who have to recycle at least one phase of the 61-day course. The difference is an assignment to one of the three battalions of the storied Ranger Regiment. The difference is earning the scroll, tab, and beret that are worn by actual Rangers.

It was after members of the Ranger community called him out that Payne switched from touting his fictional credentials as a Ranger to his actual “achievements” of targeting federal police officers with sniper rifles.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

spuwho

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2016, 04:12:04 PM »
Per Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oregon-militia-idUSKBN0UM2ED20160109

Militia groups meet with leaders of Oregon occupation, pledge support



Members of self-styled militia groups met on Friday with armed protesters occupying a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, pledging support for their cause, if not their methods, and offering to act as a peace-keeping force in the week-long standoff over land rights.

During the 30-minute meeting at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, a leader of the occupation, Ammon Bundy, told about a dozen representatives of such groups as Pacific Patriots Network, Oath Keepers and III% that he had no immediate plans to abandon the siege.

"I was asked to do this by the Lord," said Bundy, a Mormon, as some of the militia members nodded in understanding. "I did it how he told me to do it."

Earlier on Friday the Pacific Patriots Network called on its members to establish a safety perimeter around the refuge in remote southeastern Oregon to prevent a "Waco-style situation" from unfolding.

In 1993 federal agents laid siege to a compound in Waco, Texas, being held by the Branch Davidians religious sect for 51 days before the standoff ended in a gun battle and fire. Four federal agents and more than 80 members of the group died, including 23 children.

The Pacific Patriots Network has previously said that while it agrees with Bundy's land rights grievances, it does not support the occupation, a position leader Brandon Rapolla reiterated during the meeting.

Bundy thanked Rapolla and handed him a small roll of bills, which he said came from donations.

"We're friends, but we're operating separately," Rapolla, a former Marine who helped defend the Bundys in 2014 in their standoff with the U.S. government at their Nevada ranch, told Reuters in an earlier interview.

The militia members are not joining the occupation, but are sleeping in their vehicles or in hotels in Burns, he said.

Rapolla said he had also taken Sausage McMuffins to FBI agents who are stationed at nearby Burns Municipal Airport to monitor the occupation and had coffee with deputies from the county sheriff's office on Thursday.

The meetings were friendly, he said, and he told them that they were there to make sure neither side escalates the dispute.

"That's really the point of militias: it's community involvement," Rapolla said. "If something happens in your community, that's what militias are for."

Some two dozen armed protesters have occupied the headquarters of the refuge since last Saturday, marking the latest incident in the so-called Sagebrush Rebellion, a decades-old conflict over federal control of land and resources in the U.S. West.

The move followed a demonstration in support of two local ranchers, Dwight Hammond Jr. and his son Steven, who were returned to prison earlier this week for setting fires that spread to federal land.

A lawyer for Hammond family has said that the occupiers do not speak for the family.

Ammon Bundy met briefly with Harney County Sheriff David Ward on Thursday but rejected the lawman's offer of safe passage out of the state to end the standoff.

During a press conference on Friday morning, Bundy seemed to soften his position, saying: "We will take that offer but not yet and we will go out of this county and out of this state as free men."

Following Bundy's press conference on Friday morning, a lands right activist opposed to the occupation spoke to the media.

"This is about furthering an extremist right-wing agenda," Barrett Kaiser, a Montana resident and a representative of the Center for Western Priorities said, as supporters of Bundy tried to interrupt him and argue with him. "They need to be charged and prosecuted."

Local residents have expressed a mixture of sympathy for the Hammond family, suspicion of the federal government's motives and frustration with the occupation.

Federal law enforcement agents and local police have so far kept away from the occupied site, maintaining no visible presence outside the park in a bid to avoid a violent confrontation.

Redbaron616

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 04:10:40 PM »
The real problem is that the federal government owns the vast majority of the land in the western states. This should not be. Short of state parks, the land should be tuned over to the individual states. There have been a lot of disputes about grazing because the farmers have to graze on federal land. When the federal government decides against more grazing, they are messing with people's livelihoods. This is why all that land should be turned back over to the states.

Adam White

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 04:41:22 PM »
The real problem is that the federal government owns the vast majority of the land in the western states. This should not be. Short of state parks, the land should be tuned over to the individual states. There have been a lot of disputes about grazing because the farmers have to graze on federal land. When the federal government decides against more grazing, they are messing with people's livelihoods. This is why all that land should be turned back over to the states.

Why should it be turned over to the States? It's Federal land and it's owned by the people of the USA - not just the people of Nevada or Oregon or whatever. These States wouldn't even exist if the Federal government hadn't taken the steps to acquire the territory in the first place.

None of this is about the States anyway - these are criminals who broke the law and are being punished. The whole State vs Federal Government is just a convenient story to use as misdirection. What if the ranchers had burned State land and had landed in State prison for five years. Would Bundy and his racist/paranoid/inbred buddies be okay with that? We have no way to know, of course.

None of this changes the fact that in a democracy, we change things we don't like at the ballot box, not with guns.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Adam White

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 05:13:13 PM »
It's off topic of the Bundy wingnuts that are taking over the headlines. BUt there is a little lot of gray to this story regarding the background of the Hammonds. Depending on where you can find the history of the actual incident. I'm sure the truth lies in the middle as always.

To me...it sounds like the government has been pretty much strong arming the Hammonds and others to buy them out of their land so they can expand/protect the national park area.

The govt has arbitrarily revoked grazing licenses or increased the fees for such to an amount that the ranchers can't afford. Ranching is what these people have done for generations.

Now, the Hammonds are convicted of arson. But if one is trying to make a case for them, the first fire, while set on federal land, was a backfire set to prevent a forest fire from spreading to their property and destroying it. By most accounts, while illegal, this was a proper prescribed burn that was necessary and did save their property and livestock. They didn't have authority to do it, but some argue that the gov't should have done it but did not.

The second fire is sketchier. It's claimed they set the second fire to hide their dumping grounds of poached animals. If this is true, they should also be held accountable for this also. Although, I'd be shocked if they were poaching for profit but rather for food. Thats just a guess on my part and it doesn't make it less illegal. But I'm more inclined to give them a moral pass if they were hunting, in a desolate area, on land which some of it they used to own, for food. 

It's an interesting story. Wish I could find an unbiased account of it.

Perhaps - from what I understand, they didn't notify the government of the first fire until after they had set it. If it were truly a back fire that was set to prevent a fire spreading to their land, they'd have a bit more sympathy from me if they had actually contacted the government first to ask for assistance. I also believe there were BLM firefighters nearby who were threatened by the fire - so it seems likely the government was attempting to fight the fire in the first place.

As far as poaching goes - it makes no difference to me if it was for food or profit.

Also, (again) from what I've read, the had previously got into trouble for illegally setting fires and had been warned.

They were convicted in a court by a jury of their peers. And none of this really makes a difference - because as I said, in a democracy, you don't take up arms to get your way.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Ocklawaha

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 08:23:14 PM »
They claimed to be US Marine and various military combat veterans. Now that they're locked up, as a REAL wartime veteran I'm predicting that some marine, soldier, sailor or airman is going to teach them the fear of GOD!

TheCat

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 08:51:08 PM »
surprised? I actually am. The Oregon Wingnut Army was found NOT Guilty...



Quote
Ammon and Ryan Bundy have been found not guilty of conspiracy. Their five co-defendants Jeff Banta, Shawna Cox, David Fry, Kenneth Medenbach and Neil Wampler have all been found not guilty as well.

Jurors were unable to reach a verdict on Ryan Bundy’s theft of government property charge.

The jury returned its verdict after some six weeks of testimony followed by less than six hours deliberations, and the last minute replacement of a juror after an allegation surfaced that he was biased.

The jury was instructed to disregard their previous work and to re-consider the evidence

The charges stem from the 41-day armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns in eastern Oregon’s high desert. The armed protest began Jan. 2 and ended when the final four occupiers surrendered to the FBI on Feb. 11.

Prosecutors initially charged Ammon Bundy, his brother Ryan Bundy, and 24 others with conspiracy to prevent Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Fish and Wildlife employees from doing their jobs at the wildlife refuge in Harney County. Some defendants named in the indictment faced weapons charges for carrying firearms in a federal facility, as well as theft of government property.

Only seven defendants went to trial in September. Others have pleaded guilty or are scheduled to go to trial in February 2017.

Through the government’s case, prosecutors attempted to show the jury evidence about when the alleged conspiracy began, as well as how the occupation unfolded and ultimately ended.

The government relied heavily on testimony from law enforcement, including Harney County Sheriff David Ward, as well as dozens of FBI agents who responded to the occupation or processed evidence at the Malheur refuge after the occupation ended.

“At the end of the day, there is an element of common sense that demonstrates the guilt of these defendants,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight said during his closing arguments during the trial. “These defendants took over a wildlife refuge and it wasn’t theirs.”

Conversely, the defense sought to make its case about a political protest – one about protesting the federal government’s ownership and management of public lands.

“The people have to insist that the government is not our master; they are our servants,” Ryan Bundy said during his closing statement to the jury.

Bundy added the occupation had “nothing to do with impeding and preventing the employees of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.”

The occupation in rural eastern Oregon fueled a long running debate about the role of the federal government when it comes of managing public lands, especially for ranching and other natural resource-based professions.

Throughout the armed protest, occupation leader Ammon Bundy frequently said their goal was to shift the federally-owned land to local control. During presses conferences and interviews, Bundy frequently said he wanted to “get the ranchers back to ranching, get the loggers back to logging and miners back to mining.”

While federal prosecutors worked to keep their case focused on conspiracy, the trial quickly came to symbolize the growing divide between urban and rural America.

“How did any of these people benefit from protesting the death of rural America?” Attorney Matt Schindler, hybrid counsel for defendant Ken Medenbach, said during his closing statements to the jury.

Five of the seven defendants took the stand in their own defense during the trial. Occupation leader Ammon Bundy’s testimony stretched over the course of three days and included stories about growing up on a ranch and his family role in the 2014 armed standoff in Bunkerville, Nevada.

With the first Oregon trial concluded, the Bundy brothers and several other defendants who participated in the Malheur occupation will now travel to Nevada, where they face charges for their roles in the Bunkerville standoff.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/bundys-found-not-guilty-oregon-standoff-trial/
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 08:53:17 PM by TheCat »

spuwho

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Re: The Oregon Wingnut Army isn't the 2nd Whiskey Rebellion
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 10:36:07 PM »
Interesting that a group of men who defended themselves in court defeated local, state and federal evidence in court represented by professional counsel.

Wingnuts? Seems like they are pretty smart guys to me.

It pains me to say it, but perhaps stickers in their windows that say "Rural Life Matters" is in order.