Author Topic: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference  (Read 5450 times)

Metro Jacksonville

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
    • MetroJacksonville.com
So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« on: October 21, 2015, 12:15:02 AM »
So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference



Just when you thought you've heard it all, Metro Jacksonville's Robert Mann takes another look at transportation alternatives being advanced in Florida, a critical look at the differences in mass transit modes, and the possibilities afforded Jacksonville by the Skyway; with some of the positives and negatives of each.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-oct-so-whats-the-difference-a-transit-reference

Adam White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Facebook
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 01:51:17 AM »
"Thus, a vehicle with the pole attached to a wire, on rails or on rubber tires is legitimately a 'trolley,' and anything else is factually not. "

What if it uses a pantograph?
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

jaxlore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 09:00:02 AM »
Great article. Hope JTA and Nat Ford are listening.

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10429
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2015, 11:18:55 AM »
"Thus, a vehicle with the pole attached to a wire, on rails or on rubber tires is legitimately a 'trolley,' and anything else is factually not. "

What if it uses a pantograph?

Great question. FACT! In the true sense of the definition, If it doesn't have the 'trolley pole' it's not a trolley. It can be a streetcar or LRV with a pantograph, but not a trolley. Even historic or reproduction cars stripped of the pole are really no longer trolleys.

It's actually important in another way. Systems with pantograph a require catenary systems that can cost several times the amount of simple 'messenger' and 'trolley' wires. Unless JTA plans on extending some future trolley to Orange Park, I find it hard to justify the expense of catenary.

Adam White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Facebook
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 11:24:48 AM »
"Thus, a vehicle with the pole attached to a wire, on rails or on rubber tires is legitimately a 'trolley,' and anything else is factually not. "

What if it uses a pantograph?

Great question. FACT! In the true sense of the definition, If it doesn't have the 'trolley pole' it's not a trolley. It can be a streetcar or LRV with a pantograph, but not a trolley. Even historic or reproduction cars stripped of the pole are really no longer trolleys.

It's actually important in another way. Systems with pantograph a require catenary systems that can cost several times the amount of simple 'messenger' and 'trolley' wires. Unless JTA plans on extending some future trolley to Orange Park, I find it hard to justify the expense of catenary.

Thanks Ock.

That's interesting. So I assume that any standard tram or streetcar could use a trolley pole or is this something that has limitations? If it's not an issue, is there a reason why a tram has a pantograph as opposed to a trolley pole (if poles are cheaper)?
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29772
    • Modern Cities
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2015, 11:48:53 AM »
Great article Ock!  I love the images:



What you can do with various transit systems can be difficult to understand for average citizen, and in many cases, even seasoned professionals. Jacksonville needs to embrace creativity when considering the future of transit assets like the Skyway.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10429
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 10:40:59 PM »
"Thus, a vehicle with the pole attached to a wire, on rails or on rubber tires is legitimately a 'trolley,' and anything else is factually not. "

What if it uses a pantograph?

Great question. FACT! In the true sense of the definition, If it doesn't have the 'trolley pole' it's not a trolley. It can be a streetcar or LRV with a pantograph, but not a trolley. Even historic or reproduction cars stripped of the pole are really no longer trolleys.

It's actually important in another way. Systems with pantograph a require catenary systems that can cost several times the amount of simple 'messenger' and 'trolley' wires. Unless JTA plans on extending some future trolley to Orange Park, I find it hard to justify the expense of catenary.

Thanks Ock.

That's interesting. So I assume that any standard tram or streetcar could use a trolley pole or is this something that has limitations? If it's not an issue, is there a reason why a tram has a pantograph as opposed to a trolley pole (if poles are cheaper)?

I personally don't feel that the limitations are cause for the additional investment in catenary, however a limitation does exist. As 'nothing is perfect' trolley wheels or a 'U' shaped sliding 'trolley shoe,' on the single trolley wire CAN come off the wire. The pole is spring-loaded to keep constant pressure/contact with the wire and when the 'trolley' comes off the wire, the pole will continue up a few more feet and has the potential to do damage to the overhead infrastructure. This derailment of the actual trolley usually occur at switches when the overhead trolley takes the wrong route.

This being said, let's say that a well designed and even modestly maintained overhead power distribution system can make these occurrences rare. Catenary is oversold in my opinion using the time-tested method of presenting a problem and selling 'the only apparently logical solution.'
In the 315 +/- trolleybus systems in the world today, EVERY SINGLE ONE uses trolley poles. (buses use two poles as it is impossible to ground an electrical appliance through rubber tires).

These photos illustrate the versatility of the ubiquitous 'TROLLEY POLE' and simple wire installation or trolley pole on catenary.


The Village of East Troy WI 1890's style open bench 'Narragansett Car' (an armrest height railing surrounds the sides, it slides up to bottom of the roof when the car is stopped to allow passenger to entrain or detrain. As it prevents people from falling out to the right or left of the car it's known as 'The Drunk Bar.' I ran this car which is bouncy as are most 4-wheelers, but it was built to blueprints by volunteers from spare parts over the winter)


This is a faded shot of the famous airplane challenge of the 1930's. There were 20 of these lightweight 'Red Devil Cars' the interiors had a restroom, snack bar, coach and lounge seating. On the Toledo Division they typically hit 90 mph and on at least two occasions were clocked officially at just over 101 mph. Older reader might recall when a clueless JCCI referred to 'slow little trolleys' (bigger than buses, higher capacity, electric, far faster and can run as trains with a single operator).


The Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad 'Electroliner' trains operated at 90 mph between the namesake cities using trolley poles however they could go faster.

Quote
When the sets were received in 1941, during one test run the traction motors were allowed full field shunt to determine absolute maximum speed. It reached just over 110 mph (180 km/h), but at that speed the train reached highway crossings before the crossing gates fully closed, a dangerous situation. Thereafter, the sets were limited to 90 mph (140 km/h). WIKIPEDIA



These Canadian Light Rail Vehicles or CLRV's (streetcars) were built in 1977 and are being retired starting this year - 38 years of continuous service. In that same number of years according to the USDOT/FTA our 'First Coast Flyer' will be into it's fourth bus fleet replacement. Each of these cars can accommodate 72 passengers with one operator/one car, it would take two buses/operators to carry that many passengers using JTA's newest bus fleet.

Two thoughts here for the Skyway remake:

1. These cars may be available for a song, as rail equipment can be gutted to the bones and remanufactured typically giving them another 20 years of service life including some time under re-builders warrantee.
2. The CLRV's were originally designed with couplers and can run in trains, due to traffic improvements this wasn't needed in Toronto and the couplers were removed and their pockets covered. This is a reversible process. The cars came from a builder absorbed by Bombardier, builder of our Skyway meaning we might get a bit of special treatment on this if we were to investigate the possibility.


These are the replacements for the CLRV's. The new Bombardier 'Flexity' Streetcars. Toronto's massive Streetcar system is one of the oldest in North America, as they are upgrading the whole system they are now installing catenary. Interestingly though, since the catenary isn't done yet, the newest Streetcars are being delivered with 'trolley poles' and they will no doubt be converted to pantographs at some future date.

Hope this helps illustrate the fantastic opportunity that has come to our doorstep.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:49:56 PM by Ocklawaha »

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10429
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 10:49:31 PM »
Great article Ock!  I love the images:



What you can do with various transit systems can be difficult to understand for average citizen, and in many cases, even seasoned professionals. Jacksonville needs to embrace creativity when considering the future of transit assets like the Skyway.

In a starter rail system such as we are visualizing using the Skyway bridge work (piers and bents) along our 2.5 miles of elevated track. I would suggest we would need approximately 6,000 feet (1.1 mile) of additional elevated bridge structure which would allow:

The north line to vault State Street and ramp down on Hogan at FSCJ, (distance-UF HEALTH 1.1 Mi via SW side of Springfield Parks in greenway)
Allowing the east line to ramp down at or near 'The Shipyards', (distance-Corner of Hogan/Bay to Shipyards .7 miles)
Allowing the southeast line pass through the Hilton vaulting the FEC RY to ramp down on the south and west of the railroad, (distance-Kings Av Station to Atlantic Bl is .6 mi)
The Southwest line is already ramped down near Lelia Street (distance-Lelia Street Carbarn to King @ Post 2.9 mi, via Riverside, Post, Oak, King)
There is no need to ramp the Prime/JRTC/Jacksonville Terminal line unless you ramp down, extend to Myrtle, N. on Myrtle.

TOTAL SYSTEM USING 'SKYWAY-RAPID STREETCAR'
EXISTING SKYWAY EL - 2.5 MILES

UF HEALTH EXTENSION - 1.1 MILES (IN GREENWAY)
SHIPYARDS EXTENSION - .7 MILES (ADDITIONAL EL)
SAN MARCO EXTENSION - .6 MILES (.4 ON ADDITIONAL EL)
RIVERSIDE EXTENSION - 2.9 MILES (IN STREET/CURBSIDE)

TOTAL EXISTING SKYWAY/EL - 2.5 MILES
TOTAL ADDITIONAL EL - 1.1 MILES
TOTAL NEW ROUTE MILES - 5.3 MILES
TOTAL CONVERTED SYSTEM ROUTE MILES - 8.9 MILES

A grant to convert the entire project to Rapid Streetcar, build out the EL system should be as likely to be approved as the nickel and dime efforts we've seen from JTA over the last decade. In fact my observation has been that the FTA has been more than willing to grant for entire starter systems. The Durham-Orange Light Rail Transit Project just got a grant to get a jump start on a 56 mile rail transit system connecting Chapel Hill, Durham, Research Triangle Park.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:52:36 PM by Ocklawaha »

Adam White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
    • Facebook
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2015, 02:47:03 AM »
"Thus, a vehicle with the pole attached to a wire, on rails or on rubber tires is legitimately a 'trolley,' and anything else is factually not. "

What if it uses a pantograph?

Great question. FACT! In the true sense of the definition, If it doesn't have the 'trolley pole' it's not a trolley. It can be a streetcar or LRV with a pantograph, but not a trolley. Even historic or reproduction cars stripped of the pole are really no longer trolleys.

It's actually important in another way. Systems with pantograph a require catenary systems that can cost several times the amount of simple 'messenger' and 'trolley' wires. Unless JTA plans on extending some future trolley to Orange Park, I find it hard to justify the expense of catenary.

Thanks Ock.

That's interesting. So I assume that any standard tram or streetcar could use a trolley pole or is this something that has limitations? If it's not an issue, is there a reason why a tram has a pantograph as opposed to a trolley pole (if poles are cheaper)?

I personally don't feel that the limitations are cause for the additional investment in catenary, however a limitation does exist. As 'nothing is perfect' trolley wheels or a 'U' shaped sliding 'trolley shoe,' on the single trolley wire CAN come off the wire. The pole is spring-loaded to keep constant pressure/contact with the wire and when the 'trolley' comes off the wire, the pole will continue up a few more feet and has the potential to do damage to the overhead infrastructure. This derailment of the actual trolley usually occur at switches when the overhead trolley takes the wrong route.

This being said, let's say that a well designed and even modestly maintained overhead power distribution system can make these occurrences rare. Catenary is oversold in my opinion using the time-tested method of presenting a problem and selling 'the only apparently logical solution.'
In the 315 +/- trolleybus systems in the world today, EVERY SINGLE ONE uses trolley poles. (buses use two poles as it is impossible to ground an electrical appliance through rubber tires).

These photos illustrate the versatility of the ubiquitous 'TROLLEY POLE' and simple wire installation or trolley pole on catenary.


The Village of East Troy WI 1890's style open bench 'Narragansett Car' (an armrest height railing surrounds the sides, it slides up to bottom of the roof when the car is stopped to allow passenger to entrain or detrain. As it prevents people from falling out to the right or left of the car it's known as 'The Drunk Bar.' I ran this car which is bouncy as are most 4-wheelers, but it was built to blueprints by volunteers from spare parts over the winter)


This is a faded shot of the famous airplane challenge of the 1930's. There were 20 of these lightweight 'Red Devil Cars' the interiors had a restroom, snack bar, coach and lounge seating. On the Toledo Division they typically hit 90 mph and on at least two occasions were clocked officially at just over 101 mph. Older reader's might recall when a clueless JCCI referred to 'slow little trolleys' (bigger than buses, higher capacity, electric, far faster and can run as trains with a single operator).


The Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad 'Electroliner' trains operated at 90 mph between the namesake cities using trolley poles however they could go faster.

Quote
When the sets were received in 1941, during one test run the traction motors were allowed full field shunt to determine absolute maximum speed. It reached just over 110 mph (180 km/h), but at that speed the train reached highway crossings before the crossing gates fully closed, a dangerous situation. Thereafter, the sets were limited to 90 mph (140 km/h). WIKIPEDIA



These Canadian Light Rail Vehicles or CLRV's (streetcars) were built in 1977 and are being retired starting this year - 38 years of continuous service. In that same number of years according to the USDOT/FTA our 'First Coast Flyer' will be into it's fourth bus fleet replacement. Each of these cars can accommodate 72 passengers with one operator/one car, it would take two buses/operators to carry that many passengers using JTA's newest bus fleet.

Two thoughts here for the Skyway remake:

1. These cars may be available for a song, as rail equipment can be gutted to the bones and remanufactured typically giving them another 20 years of service life including some time under re-builders warrantee.
2. The CLRV's were originally designed with couplers and can run in trains, due to traffic improvements this wasn't needed in Toronto and the couplers were removed and their pockets covered. This is a reversible process. The cars came from a builder absorbed by Bombardier, builder of our Skyway meaning we might get a bit of special treatment on this if we were to investigate the possibility.


These are the replacements for the CLRV's. The new Bombardier 'Flexity' Streetcars. Toronto's massive Streetcar system is one of the oldest in North America, as they are upgrading the whole system they are now installing catenary. Interestingly though, since the catenary isn't done yet, the newest Streetcars are being delivered with 'trolley poles' and they will no doubt be converted to pantographs at some future date.

Hope this helps illustrate the fantastic opportunity that has come to our doorstep.

Thanks again, Ock. That answers my question. It would seem that the limitations aren't that extensive. The Toronto streetcar is an interesting case. I would've thought a single overhead line would look better and be less noticeable, too.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:05:02 PM by Ocklawaha »
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10429
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: So What's The Difference - A Transit Reference
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2015, 09:27:34 AM »
Right, a single trolley wire is much cleaner and pleasing to the eye. With Catenary for use with pantographs the contact wire zig-zags right to left to right to left etc. this is so the pantograph doesn't wear out at a single contact location. The finished effect can look pretty darn sloppy.