Author Topic: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards  (Read 12182 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« on: March 06, 2015, 03:00:03 AM »
The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards



For over 140 years, East Bay Street was home to one of the largest shipbuilding operations on the east coast.  Since 1992, this site has become known as a field where revitalization dreams come to die a bitter death. Here's a brief look at the site's past, present and possible future.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-the-different-faces-of-the-jacksonville-shipyards

Noone

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 03:14:58 AM »
Special DIA Board meeting 3/6/15 at 9 am 1st floor city hall on Shipyards III. Also on the agenda a presentation on a NATIONAL DISTRICT for Downtown. Anyone going?

Redbaron616

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 06:32:24 AM »
The big question is this: How many taxpayer dollars will go into this, directly or indirectly? Crony capitalism seems to be the only thing government knows anymore.

Marle Brando

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 09:48:57 AM »
^Lol. Oh my, taxpayer dollars oh my!! Why can't we just have nice things for free? You mean to tell me nice things cost a lil dough? You mean we have one of the lowest tax rates in the country yet we want nice things, who would've thunk it.

avonjax

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 09:58:45 AM »
 
I know there are people for and against this plan. I know some people think it should be organic and developed in small increments. I know that like Redbaron616 some are only worried about taxpayers dollars. But here is the truth. If this doesn't get done we may NEVER see this land developed. And if it's developed organically over a period of time it may be decades before it's developed and/or completed.
As pointed out in this post there have been two other major plans for this site, yet we have NEVER seen or HEARD about someone wanting to develop a small portion of it. (Or at least to my knowledge it has never been talked about.) We are going into year 23 since the shipyards closed for good and it's still an empty lot in a city that wants to be taken seriously. Yet we can't seriously get this area done.
I feel this property HAS to be developed or downtown will continue to suffer.
I read that Connie Benham who is running for a position in the City Council for District 6 doesn't feel what Khan is proposing will draw people from the Southside. She thinks it needs a roller coaster or Ferris Wheel. Years ago we rejected Disney and Busch but now we feel we need a "Carnival" on the river?  I really don't care that she's concerned that this project won't draw people from Southside. They have ample amenities anyway.
I'm not saying that it won't be important to draw people from all parts of town but that shouldn't be the MOST important thing.
Like it or not Khan has very deep pockets and I'm sure a lot of connections that could likely get this done. But more than anything this guy wants this to happen NOW not in another 23 years.
Whether you love or hate the proposal, whether you are horrified that some taxpayers money may be involved or whether you are person who hates the idea of a major project, the city has done a HORRIBLE job of promoting this site. The movers, shakers and politicians of this city have never put enough effort to promote the idea of developing this site or maybe, just maybe something would have been started by now. (At least the perception is they have done a terrible job. Or maybe they have done a terrible job of selling the great things we all know about our city. It appears Khan has figured this out himself. And this project would be great for his business. Either way he sees the importance of it.)
Each time a plan has been proposed these same three objections have been raised and since 2000 going into year 15 NOTHING has happened at the site. (I am aware some site prep has been done.)
This is by far our best chance of getting this wonderful site improved. I just hope the politics and "concerned taxpayers" of Jacksonville don't ruin this.

avonjax

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2015, 10:02:05 AM »
^Lol. Oh my, taxpayer dollars oh my!! Why can't we just have nice things for free? You mean to tell me nice things cost a lil dough? You mean we have one of the lowest tax rates in the country yet we want nice things, who would've thunk it.

This could very well be the reason our downtown looks the way it does. It's a sea of empty lots or abandoned foundations. Or better yet long gone buildings turned into parking lots.

thelakelander

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 10:09:27 AM »
If Khan develops the Shipyards, it will be organic and developed incrementally. Outside of the Jags component and the USS Adams, it's been mentioned that it will be built based on what the market can support. So what actually pops up on the site will be different from what was shown in the renderings a few weeks back. Plus, looking at their site plan, they've pretty much carved the property into a bunch of smaller parcels and building pads that can be developed by different parties. That's basically what many have been saying the city should do.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 11:24:17 AM by thelakelander »
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vicupstate

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2015, 11:20:54 AM »
^^ Under no circumstances will this site be developed quickly.  And as for Khan's deep pockets, he isn't putting any of his own money in this to amount to anything.  Frankly the city WOULD be better off letting this site site fallow, if it means they will instead do what is more important and achievable.  That being invigorating the Landing-Laura corridor and implementation of the JEA/Healthy Town site plans (which is already re-mediated). 

Downtown was successful before WITHOUT even one retail store, resident or office on the Shipyards site. It can be so again.  For decades JAX has been trying to revive the Northbank, Southbank, LaVilla, Brooklyn, Cathedral district, Shipyards and Sports district all at once.  That is one big reason why NONE of them has succeeded.  Concentrate on one or at most two of those, and let the rest wait for another day.

Khan's plan is a pie in the sky dream that even he is not backing financially. It is fools gold.   
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simms3

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2015, 12:44:52 PM »
What Khan is proposing is hardly any different than what Denver did with Denver Union Station or San Francisco has done with the Transbay District.  The city either creates a master development entity (in SF's case with the Transbay Joint Powers Authority) or selects an experienced master developer (as in Denver's case with East West Partners), but many groups invariably come in to develop sites, either in partnership with the master developer, or the master developer preps the land and/or creates the legal framework and then sells the land to other developers.  Often times fees and land sales from the city go towards something - in SF's case, the Transbay Terminal.  In Denver's case, Denver Union Station.

It's very akin to an MPC (Master Planned Community), which is what groups like Howard Hughes and Lennar do.  Lennar's doing essentially the exact same thing in San Francisco both with Hunters Point (former shipyards) and Treasure Island (former naval station on an island in the middle of the bay).

The difference between Khan and TBJPA, EWP, Lennar, HHC, and others is that the latter group are all experienced and this is what they do.  In Khan's case, this is not what he does.  However, sadly, there seems to be nobody else in the city with the capability, even if they have the development expertise.

The difference, financially, for the city of Jax and the other cities where this sort of thing occurs is that incremental tax dollars, land sales, etc often are used to pay for some large public component.  E.g. a major transit station or public works project, central park, etc.  In Jacksonville's case, the city kind of almost gets nothing, not even the incremental tax dollars.

However, I guess beggars can't be choosers.  As this article points out, candidly, there have been so many attempts on this site and so many proposals.  All by groups without the experience or capability, though I thought the Spences signed on a decent sized hedgy and I thought one proposal was essentially by WCI, which owned Landmar, a large FL developer of condos (which didn't they go bankrupt?).
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Rob68

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2015, 02:08:12 PM »
Maybe a waterfront urban farm until things in this city change. I hear it all over the city from alot of wealthy people and most of them poo poo the idea of going downtown due to fears of all kinds of bullshit and i just dont see there being enough people getting their butts down there any time soon and especially putting their money into investments down there. Hopefully as our younger citizens age they will pick up the ball because the GOB system in this city has killed it.

Ajax

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2015, 03:44:50 PM »
The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards



For over 140 years, East Bay Street was home to one of the largest shipbuilding operations on the east coast.  Since 1992, this site has become known as a field where revitalization dreams come to die a bitter death. Here's a brief look at the site's past, present and possible future.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-the-different-faces-of-the-jacksonville-shipyards

What a wonderful picture.  This was during my lifetime, but it seems so long ago that I hardly recognize that area. 

I-10east

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 04:01:36 PM »
IMO maritime/industrial areas like the old shipyards aren't the most aesthetic pleasing to the eye areas to see. IMO almost all of the 'would be' shipyards projects had better blending foliage resembling Jacksonville moreso than Khan's Naples-inspired tropical palm tree mania.

Marle Brando

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 03:33:42 PM »
^I know it's a matter of opinion but imo  Khans plan is the best of any previous plans. The high rises of the plans before offered minimal retsil, and public access to the property. By this access, I mean with Khans plan the public and private can freely maneuver and navigate the grounds with minimal interruption of public flow access. And NOTHING in Naples resembles anything in his proposal, not even close. If anything, the SJTC resembles Naples. And I can't understand the palm tree hate, I mean we do live in Florida albeit north Florida. Have any of the palm complainers even payed attention to how the walkways weave thru and under buildings thus providing shade. Also the way the buildings are positioned shields sunlight when the sun is at its most brutal point. Look again and study the suns positioning to the property. To me it was brilliant.

thelakelander

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 05:03:56 PM »
Trilegacy's wasn't bad. Other than the football component, Khan's nearly copies it (ex. number of hotel rooms, residential units, office square footage, etc.). It's just hard trying to dig up 2001 graphics in 2015.
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I-10east

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Re: The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 05:18:05 PM »
^I know it's a matter of opinion but imo  Khans plan is the best of any previous plans. The high rises of the plans before offered minimal retsil, and public access to the property. By this access, I mean with Khans plan the public and private can freely maneuver and navigate the grounds with minimal interruption of public flow access. And NOTHING in Naples resembles anything in his proposal, not even close. If anything, the SJTC resembles Naples. And I can't understand the palm tree hate, I mean we do live in Florida albeit north Florida. Have any of the palm complainers even payed attention to how the walkways weave thru and under buildings thus providing shade. Also the way the buildings are positioned shields sunlight when the sun is at its most brutal point. Look again and study the suns positioning to the property. To me it was brilliant.

I agree that Khan's plan is generally one of the best, if not the best Shipyard plan, but I don't like the foliage. I'm fine with subtropical foliage like sabal palms, oaks etc, but not foliage that isn't native the Northern Florida (coconut palms, royal palms etc). Look at St Augustine which has a rich history, do you see any tropical trees from South Florida there? Most of those other failed Shipyards plans had a nice touch of different shade trees, with a good hint of local sabal palms (not overdone); I wish that Khan would implement a landscaping plan like those others. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 05:27:21 PM by I-10east »