Author Topic: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?  (Read 8217 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« on: November 14, 2014, 03:00:02 AM »
Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?



Ever wonder what a sunbelt sprawler like Jacksonville would look like with light rail and no zoning regulations?  Houston would be a good case study to evaluate.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-nov-can-houston-be-a-model-for-jacksonville

urbanlibertarian

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 11:24:10 AM »
If we want more economic development in our downtown, deregulation is a very inexpensive way to make it easier for investors and developers to create something on the acres and acres of surface parking lots.  Can't we have a special permissive zoning for undeveloped property in the core?  Can we convince COJ to give up some of it's power for the sake of DT development?
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exnewsman

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 03:07:59 PM »
With some of our largest employment centers miles away from the business core in Southpoint and Deerwood, I would like to hear from Lake and others on where they think a similar LRT in Jacksonville would be best positioned. What do you see as the best scenario from Point A to Point B and C, D, E, etc.

thelakelander

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 04:07:47 PM »
In my mind, armed with limited transit funding, i'd invest heavily in certain spots and not as much in others.  Attempting to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density with no potential or desire to retrofit with higher density, is a waste of resources and everyone's time. 

Instead, different environments should be allowed to develop and residents should have the choice of which they prefer to live and spent their time and money in.  If you choose Argyle, that's cool. Just don't expect a train or bus to be out there every 15-30 minutes.  If you chose Durkeeville, a denser built-up area with a transit dependent population where there's potential to double density with the right type of infrastructure, expect frequent transit.

With that said, I've grown to the point, where I'm not a fan of one transit mode fits all environments.  Thus, in the urban core, given the landscape, river's position, costs of modes, street network, etc.,  I'd shoot for modern streetcar and the initial starter segment would be 5 to 10 miles tops. The more debatable question for me would be if it's better to leave the Skyway as is, or retrofit its infrastructure to accommodate an elevated streetcar that can then come down to grade to penetrate surrounding inner city neighborhoods.

If we're specifically talking LRT, and using a Houston model (a short starter segment that can't serve every area of town), given our landscape, the San Diego Trolley's Green Line would be a better example to follow. 

I'd probably run with a starter that connects DT Jax to UNF via two straight lines. One being Kings Ave/Philips and the other being JTB. A 12 mile line would provide direct stops to DT Jax/Skyway system, San Marco, Philips Corridor (a great 6 mile stretch to rezone and essentially start over from scratch), Southpoint, St. Lukes Hospital, Deerwood Park, SJTC, and UNF.

This provides you with viable destinations at both end points (DT Jax/San Marco/UNF), and a good mix of high employment, medical centers, shopping, dining, multifamily that continues to mushroom along JTB and redevelopment opportunities in the middle. Unfortunately, you don't hit the Northbank, but I'm assuming the Skyway is still in place and that other opportunities such as modern streetcar, commuter rail, AAF, BRT, etc. come into play.

Future growth and funding leverages provides the opportunity for a straight shot to Mayo and Jax Beach. All those north/south and east/west arterials intersecting with Philips and JTB, then become perfect streets for high frequency bus service that we're currently calling BRT. The scenario I just described already exists in suburban San Diego where the Green Line serves a corridor just like JTB.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 04:12:14 PM by thelakelander »
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simms3

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 04:51:37 PM »
In my mind, armed with limited transit funding, i'd invest heavily in certain spots and not as much in others.  Attempting to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density with no potential or desire to retrofit with higher density, is a waste of resources and everyone's time. 

Instead, different environments should be allowed to develop and residents should have the choice of which they prefer to live and spent their time and money in.  If you choose Argyle, that's cool. Just don't expect a train or bus to be out there every 15-30 minutes.  If you chose Durkeeville, a denser built-up area with a transit dependent population where there's potential to double density with the right type of infrastructure, expect frequent transit.

I agree with all of the above, but with part of Durkeeville at 2,945 ppsm and the other part at 5,893 (pretty much a high point for Jax), I'd say you can probably 3-4x the density, not just double it.  3-4x can still actually be single family housing.  It's really when you get past 15-20,000 ppsm that you're talking purely low-rise apartments or rowhouses, and really above 40,000 ppsm that it's certainly mid-rise and up apartment only density.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Frequent bus service (every 15 minutes or so) actually needs a good 15,000 ppsm + to be sufficiently filled.  Let alone rail service.  Very few cities in America (maybe 4-5 tops) can legitimately support rail or really frequent bus service (3-5 minutes).  Most new-age rail ridership-per-mile is pretty damn low.  Supporting densification and economic development - yes, but filled to the brim with riders out of pure necessity due to already in place density - far from it.

I think Houston's existing LRT line is heavily used, from what I recall.  Connects a good ~75 million sf of office space and decent residential density with several city amenities on a fairly short spur line.
Bothering locals and trolling boards since 2005

thelakelander

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 05:08:40 PM »
In my mind, armed with limited transit funding, i'd invest heavily in certain spots and not as much in others.  Attempting to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density with no potential or desire to retrofit with higher density, is a waste of resources and everyone's time. 

Instead, different environments should be allowed to develop and residents should have the choice of which they prefer to live and spent their time and money in.  If you choose Argyle, that's cool. Just don't expect a train or bus to be out there every 15-30 minutes.  If you chose Durkeeville, a denser built-up area with a transit dependent population where there's potential to double density with the right type of infrastructure, expect frequent transit.

I agree with all of the above, but with part of Durkeeville at 2,945 ppsm and the other part at 5,893 (pretty much a high point for Jax), I'd say you can probably 3-4x the density, not just double it.  3-4x can still actually be single family housing.  It's really when you get past 15-20,000 ppsm that you're talking purely low-rise apartments or rowhouses, and really above 40,000 ppsm that it's certainly mid-rise and up apartment only density.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Yes. Durkeeville has lost more than 50% of it's population since 1950 and it's still one of the denser areas of Jax. In the early days, most of it and adjacent neighborhoods like LaVilla, Brooklyn, Sugar Hill, etc. were dominated with shotgun housing. It would be very easy to 3-4x the population in some of these areas, given the existing infrastructure network was developed for a much larger population to begin with.







« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 05:14:47 PM by thelakelander »
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BoldBoyOfTheSouth

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 07:23:56 PM »
Light rail in Jacksonville connecting out current monorail thingy should be expanded from the current stops to EverBank Field, to Main Street in Springfield, a stop near 5 Points in Riverside, a stop on Edgewood Avenue to connect with Murray Hill & Avondale and a stop near San Marco Square make it worth taking and probably will be very successful.

It can connect to the tracks parallel to Phillips Highway with a few stops where office buildings can be built, stops at Bay Meadows and near The Avenues Mall.

Continue along the same tracks to St Augustine Road, Racetrack Road & County Rd 210 in St Johns County.

This will connect the suburbs and the urban core neighborhoods and take a huge amount of cars off the roads.

finehoe

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 10:08:31 PM »
If we want more economic development in our downtown, deregulation is a very inexpensive way to make it easier for investors and developers to create something on the acres and acres of surface parking lots.  Can't we have a special permissive zoning for undeveloped property in the core?  Can we convince COJ to give up some of it's power for the sake of DT development?

This approach was tried in the 80s.  See Urban Enterprise Zone.  Overall, the consensus on the effectiveness of enterprise zones in the US is mixed at best.

Quote
Lambert and Coomes (2001) found that the Louisville, Kentucky enterprise zone mostly benefited large corporations rather than small entrepreneurs and did not benefit local neighborhoods at all, even though community re-development was a goal. More importantly, in a book that reviewed most major enterprise zone studies done in the 1980s and 1990s as well as conducting its own original work, Peters and Fisher (2002) consider most state and local enterprise zone programs to have come up short in achieving their goals and objectives.

 Lambert, Thomas E. and Paul A. Coomes. 2001. "An Evaluation of the Effectiveness of the Louisville Enterprise Zone Program", Economic Development Quarterly, 15(2): 168-180

Peters, Alan H. and Peter S. Fisher. 2002. State Enterprise Zone Programs: Have They Worked? Kalamazoo, Michigan: W.E. Upjohn Institute

Robertphou

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 02:41:17 PM »
If Jacksonville is really thinking about light rail, do not use the 325 million for seven and a half miles mentioned in the article.  The real number was above 450 million.  Today Metro is adding to the system at a published cost of over 150 million a mile. 
You may also want to do a Google on "Metro's greates hits" to see what you have to look forward to.  Yes Ridership is good but the system has done absolutely nothing to relieve congestion.  It has all but destroyed what was a good bus system by replacing routes on Main.  The pictures in the article are somewhat selective and don't show the stores with no curbside parking and Montrose has nothing to do this route.  Houston is booming not because of light rail but in spite of it.  Public transit is a need in a large city but this building a railroad in the middle of the street is not a wise use of scarce public funds.
Robert Pulliam
Houston TX

thelakelander

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 04:01:48 PM »
You do know that public transit doesn't truly relieve traffic congestion. Keep widening roads and growing in an sprawling manner and more cars will be on the street as a result.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2014, 05:24:36 PM »
If there is any detectable brain activity, one would hope Houston could teach us a lesson...









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Gunnar

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Re: Can Houston be a Model for Jacksonville?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 09:05:43 AM »
How about a rail line connecting JIA to the Beaches via downtown ? On its way it could have stops at UNF / JTB.

In the future it might even extend (or connect to other means of transportation) to Brunswick in the north, St Augustine and OP in the south... making Jacksonville more of a transportation hub for the area.
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