Author Topic: The Port to Nowhere  (Read 17288 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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The Port to Nowhere
« on: May 13, 2014, 03:30:02 AM »
The Port to Nowhere



A new lawsuit questions the economic potential of proposed JaxPort expansion.



Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-the-port-to-nowhere-

simms3

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2014, 03:44:30 AM »
Hard to argue with that - beautifully written.  I'm not versed enough to hold an opinion, but the environmental impacts certainly should be considered.
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Noone

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2014, 06:26:56 AM »
Go with the Federal money that will insure a 45' depth. Then build your economic base around that.

Tonight at the 5/13/14 Jacksonville city council meeting there is a Public hearing on 2014-276 and that is $363,562 from Risk Management settling a dispute over claims that a DREDGING project caused damage to home owners. Why wasn't this before Waterways?


mtraininjax

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2014, 06:55:59 AM »
Great article, extremely well written. Jax still has the mile point mess to get fixed, they have no business looking at 50 feet at the cost of Billions of dollars.

Face it, Miami is a given, port is right next to the Ocean, Jax is 13 miles inland from the Ocean. Savannah is 6 or 7 miles. So if the Feds are going to look at who has a better shot, us or Savannah, its pretty obvious that Savannah will cost less.

That being said, more bigger, slower ships in a small area, mean the other ships have to go somewhere. So why not, as I have stated before, build a partnership with Brunswick & Savannah to build a regional shipping hub. You can slap whatever needs to go on the 50-foot deep ships on rail and send them up via CSX and visa-versa for smaller ships.

Besides, as Jax and this region grows, we will need more aggregate items. LNG, coal, other natural materials, its not sexy like containers, but it is consistent and steady. Why bankrupt the port and community to chase the elusive brass ring with so many chasing it? The egos of people wanting to spend 1.2 billion only rival some of the posters on MJ.
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MEGATRON

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2014, 08:56:16 AM »
Great article, extremely well written. Jax still has the mile point mess to get fixed, they have no business looking at 50 feet at the cost of Billions of dollars.

Face it, Miami is a given, port is right next to the Ocean, Jax is 13 miles inland from the Ocean. Savannah is 6 or 7 miles. So if the Feds are going to look at who has a better shot, us or Savannah, its pretty obvious that Savannah will cost less.

That being said, more bigger, slower ships in a small area, mean the other ships have to go somewhere. So why not, as I have stated before, build a partnership with Brunswick & Savannah to build a regional shipping hub. You can slap whatever needs to go on the 50-foot deep ships on rail and send them up via CSX and visa-versa for smaller ships.

Besides, as Jax and this region grows, we will need more aggregate items. LNG, coal, other natural materials, its not sexy like containers, but it is consistent and steady. Why bankrupt the port and community to chase the elusive brass ring with so many chasing it? The egos of people wanting to spend 1.2 billion only rival some of the posters on MJ.
However Savannah is extremely difficult to navigate
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djaffee

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2014, 05:09:02 PM »
This is an important community economic development issue and this piece covers many of the legitimate concerns that should engage the citizens of the region.

One point: no one is claiming that the dredging/deepening will create 64,000 jobs. I am not sure where this number came from. The Martin Associates economic impact study and projections, for which many questions can and should be raised, projects an additional 13,844 jobs in 2035 if deepened to 47 feet. This includes induced and indirect jobs.

If you would like to learn more about the problems with the job numbers, the question of job quality, and other issues that would suggest this may not be a good investment of taxpayer dollars, check out the Ports Project website at UNF and the reports and papers posted at that site.
https://www.unf.edu/coas/cci/ports/

And one of the reports here titled "Jaxport as an Urban Growth Strategy: Community Implications and Prospects"
https://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/cci/ports/Jaxport%20As%20An%20Urban%20Growth%20Strategy%20-%20CCI.pdf

 

southsider1015

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2014, 07:32:36 PM »
The Port to Nowhere



A new lawsuit questions the economic potential of proposed JaxPort expansion.



Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-the-port-to-nowhere-

Did I miss something?  Where's the discussion on the environmental impacts?  The author pointed out all the potentials and promises with the $700 million investment.  Great.  Shouldn't the Sierra Club be telling us about the potential negative environmental impacts?  Sorry, I was just looking for some real information, and didn't find it.

tufsu1

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2014, 09:33:28 PM »
Face it, Miami is a given, port is right next to the Ocean, Jax is 13 miles inland from the Ocean. Savannah is 6 or 7 miles. So if the Feds are going to look at who has a better shot, us or Savannah, its pretty obvious that Savannah will cost less.

sorry but Savannah's port is more like 22 miles in

simms3

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2014, 09:45:53 PM »
Did I miss something?  Where's the discussion on the environmental impacts?  The author pointed out all the potentials and promises with the $700 million investment.  Great.  Shouldn't the Sierra Club be telling us about the potential negative environmental impacts?  Sorry, I was just looking for some real information, and didn't find it.


Do you honestly think Sierra Club would even get heard or be considered a voice for a potential impact of this size if all it did was focus on a few highly specific and largely theoretical environmental changes?  I thought her argument was brilliant - it all sounded right to me and I had no idea it was a Sierra Club opposition piece until I got to the bottom.  Sierra Club has a big, highly environmentally conscious and sometimes militant audience in certain regions of this country (namely the Bay Area where it was founded), but Jax is not one of them.  For something as important as this, it's important to appeal to and be heard by as many people as possible.

I'm inclined to side with the author on the issue based on how well she chose her words and how she framed her argument.  Can't say I've heard something better come from the proposition side.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 11:15:05 PM »
Quote
While talk of 1.8 billion dollars in revenue and 64,000 jobs are impressive numbers, it is important to recall that they are projected and are based on the assumption of obtaining the business of the largest cargo ships. This is what the race for expansion refers to. The cargo ships need somewhere to go, yes, but they won’t be going everywhere. There will still be the current sized cargo ships out on the sea, and there is no need to cause damage to the St. John’s River and cost the city of Jacksonville hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain that business. What is more, there is no guarantee that expanding the port will actually bring in the business that JaxPort is projecting.

Well written but you're in Fantasyland if you think shipping companies are going to continue to invest in 5,000-8,000 TEU ship construction and operation when very close to the same operational dollars can be invested in a ship that delivers 15,000-18,000. One Post-Panamax ship can make the journey accounting for two smaller ships, investing anything in these smaller ships is to invest in Caravel's, Galleon's and Schooner's.

Quote
Of existing ports in the United States, Jacksonville ranks 19th based on port capacity. On the Eastern seaboard, JaxPort is 11th in size, with 10 other ports ranking higher in TEU capacity. This includes two other ports in Florida, including Port Everglades in Ft. Lauderdale and Port of Miami, as well as the Port of Savannah. In fact, the Port of Savannah is currently one of the top five largest ports in all of the United States and is an active player in the race for expansion.


This confuses our 'capacity' with our 'performance' which is quite below our capacity. Tripac alone could handle virtually every container coming our way last year. Toss in Talleyrand, Crowley, Blount Island and any new terminals and that could exceed Savannah.

Quote
However, each of these other Southeast regional ports is experiencing similar issues to that faced by JaxPort. The potential for bringing in these mega-ships just isn’t there. To attract the largest ships that are anticipated to reach the East Coast from China or Japan following the opening of the Panama Canal expansion the port needs to be at least 50 feet deep. The bottom line is that our waters are just too shallow, and reaching 50 feet is not possible.

50 feet is entirely possible, (get a shovel) to refuse this step is to place us on a one way path to oblivion as a port. The potential for mega-ships is absolutely here. Here more then Savannah, Miami, Wilmington, Canaveral, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale... We have the most developed rail connections of all of these places. In fact where the tracks meet the sea in the Southeast, we are Chicago.

Likewise to shun containers for bulk cargoes simply means the high paying distribution jobs which come about in the value added sector, warehousing, labeling, packing, freezing, etc... go someplace else. Rather a moot argument if we insist that we'll only deal with vessels as out dated as 3 masted sailing ships.


mtraininjax

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 06:46:06 AM »
Quote
Likewise to shun containers for bulk cargoes simply means the high paying distribution jobs which come about in the value added sector, warehousing, labeling, packing, freezing, etc... go someplace else.

You are only offering conjecture, as we all are. No one knows for sure the affect of not going to 50 feet, because no one, not even ChrisUF, can predict the future. Last I checked, Ock, neither could you.

The Marines would buy what they do not own in Blount Island, if they could. So what is left, Tripac, as you suggest and our aggregate business. However, the port is only on one side of the river too. If that is to continue, I see a lot of imminent domain purchases in the coming years to allow for growth of the port, sorry homeowners with a dream. But yet, still I do not know the future.

My point is that with our nice little container business, Tripac, our fantastic Agg business and our new LNG business, why must we leverage our future, our kids future and their kids future for something that has absolutely 0 guarantee, when we should instead look to:
  • Build partnerships with Savannah and Brunswick
  • Look to expand our existing business offerings with the likes of Keystone and other smaller carriers

It seems foolish for us to chase the magic pony, along with all others, when we can grow and be happy with what we have and we KNOW these lines and business have good jobs NOW, why leverage our areas future on a whim?
Hope is never a strategy and that is all 50 feet is, hope that jobs come with it.
And, that $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin. - Mayor John Peyton

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thelakelander

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 06:56:41 AM »
There's something to be said about forming partnerships with nearby ports and promoting regionalism. It appears that this is what the Gulf Coast ports, from Houston to Tampa, are doing.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

mtraininjax

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 07:08:26 AM »
^+1 , In a decreasing Fed Budget, with limited resources, we are going to see more sharing of freight in regional settings. There just is not enough money in the pot for all 14 ports in Florida to get their fair share.
And, that $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin. - Mayor John Peyton

“This is a game-changer. This is what I mean when I say taking Jacksonville to the next level.”
-Mayor Alvin Brown on new video boards at Everbank Field

tufsu1

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 08:22:20 AM »
There's something to be said about forming partnerships with nearby ports and promoting regionalism. It appears that this is what the Gulf Coast ports, from Houston to Tampa, are doing.

just don't look for Port Tampa Bay and Port Manatee to partner in anything these days.

thelakelander

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Re: The Port to Nowhere
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 09:03:34 AM »
Yeah, I don't think Port Manatee is included in that partnership between Port Tampa Bay and the larger Gulf Coast ports.
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