Redefining the Mall in the name of Urbanism

[Metro Jacksonville]

Redefining the Mall in the name of Urbanism



Metro Jacksonville attempts to clear up the local media's misconceptions about the characteristics of malls, lifestyle centers, the concept of new urbanism and their impact on the First Coast.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/770

[second_pancake]

The problem arises when local media and city planners begin to believe and preach to citizens that this type of development serves as the ideal form of New Urbanism in the suburbs.  With this belief we do our city a great disservice by missing out on the true benefit of New Urbansim's ability to limit sprawl and redefine development trends in our low density suburban areas.

Thank you so much for this article!  No truer words have been spoken.  You were able to very eloquently convey a point I've been trying to make to many people since the inception of SJTC.

[Traveller]

An interesting example of New Urbanism in the suburbs is Birkdale Village in Huntersville, NC, about 20 minutes north of uptown Charlotte.  It's three story apartment complex with mall stores at street level.  There are bars, restaurants, and even a cinema on the premises.  No large department stores, though.  One block is also reserved for office space.  It's a very cool place to visit, but if I had a wife who stayed home all day, I'd be terrified to live there! 

http://www.birkdalevillage.net/welcome.htm

[zoo]

Thank you, Lake, for clarifying this!

I can't tell you how many experienced developers, commercial real estate professionals, municipal professionals and even planners bandy about "new urbanism" out of ignorance or in an effort to apply what is now considered trendy to various projects.

Brooklyn Park fits the bill, as could a visionary development in LaVilla (if parking were carefully planned), but SJTC is merely a lifestyle center (aka outdoor mall with pricier stores). Some would say SJTC was needed in Jax, but now it's here, almost fully planned and built out, so can we move on to something a bit more urban-innovative?

Where are the innovators in this town? Innovating is difficult, but that's what makes it so great. Eating up NEFL land like bacteria in a sideless petri dish is tired.

[Doctor_K]

I agree with the points raised by this post.  More urban-type construction is needed and would be a welcome change in this region.  Completely smack in the face of this statement, I just moved into Georgetown, the townhouses behind the SJTC.  My wife and I walk over to the TC regularly to shop, dine, grab a glass of vino, hit the Publix, etc.  We both commute to work, but when we're home, we can do a lot of things without the car.  Pretty nice.  Does that make me a living anachronism?

Speaking of possible anachronisms, what are anyone's thoughts on Tapestry Park, which is trying to push itself as an 'urban village?'  Just another commercial property mocking true new-urbanism?  Or a step in the right direction?

[thelakelander]

Completely smack in the face of this statement, I just moved into Georgetown, the townhouses behind the SJTC.  My wife and I walk over to the TC regularly to shop, dine, grab a glass of vino, hit the Publix, etc.  We both commute to work, but when we're home, we can do a lot of things without the car.  Pretty nice.  Does that make me a living anachronism?

I haven't been back through there in a while.  Isn't Georgetown a gated community with one way in and one way out by car?

Georgetown has the benefit of being next door to a shopping center, in the same fashion that living on or near San Juan Avenue gives those few residents pretty easy access to Roosevelt Square on foot.  However, no one would attempt to make the claim that Roosevelt Square represents new urbanism although its easy to reach its Longhorn Steakhouse on foot than it is to walk from Georgetown to the SJTC's Original Pancake House. 

Speaking of possible anachronisms, what are anyone's thoughts on Tapestry Park, which is trying to push itself as an 'urban village?'  Just another commercial property mocking true new-urbanism?  Or a step in the right direction?

I find Tapestry Park interesting.  Its a decent attempt limited by its location in the middle of an office park with curving parkways and poor direct access to Southside Blvd (in regards to the retail section it has).  Given the location and the size, I don't think it will have much of an impact.

[Jason]

Great article Ennis.

After seeing the multiple aerial views of the Town Center, there still may be hope for its future.  The parking lot does have a grided pattern to it and the possiblity for in-fill to cover the lots is apparent.  The question is will the city and the developer be willing to make the adjustments and push for more density on that parcel of land?

[Steve]

Wow - this is one of the best articles I've seen in a while.  Nice job.

Let's see if the media picks up on this.

[thelakelander]

Examples of new suburban projects incorporating New Urbanism in Charlotte and Atlanta:

a new apartment complex and strip retail shops


public mini storage warehouse


a strip shopping center anchored by a Harris Teeter grocery store


the retail buildings and grocery store are located between the street/sidewalk and surface parking lot (same density as typical suburban Jax retail center, but different way of laying out the components (building, parking, sidewalks,etc.)


a Kroger anchored strip center in Atlanta.  The building sits between the street and sidewalk


full article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/484/118/

After seeing the multiple aerial views of the Town Center, there still may be hope for its future.  The parking lot does have a grided pattern to it and the possiblity for in-fill to cover the lots is apparent.  The question is will the city and the developer be willing to make the adjustments and push for more density on that parcel of land?

Yes, in the same fashion that infill can happen with a traditional mall or Tinseltown's parking lot.  However, its highly unrealistic and would take decades during good economic times to ultimately pull off.  In the meantime, the general surrounding area chokes off the sprawl its created and the infrastructure fails to support a type of development it really never could from the start.  

This is why its important for local media, residents and city officials to not confuse this type of development with New Urbanism or continue to accept setting to lower standards of development.  If the principles are clearly understood and applied from the beginning, we end up with good development the start as opposed to waiting for the newly created surface lots fill in 20 years down the line.

[EP]

I agree 100% with this article.  First, I feel that suburban greenfield developments such as SJTC function as dressed-up sprawl.  Jacksonville's major employment center is downtown, and its pretty clear that people still commute downtown from SJTC.  These projects may reduce internal trips, but people will still commute to go to work.  Creating a shopping center with a housing component should not be confused with creating a community.

[Doctor_K]

Lake-- road access in and out of Georgetown is one gated exit, but there's a foot-bridge connecting Phase I with (the as-yet unconstructed) Phase II and a pedestrian-scale entrance to the corner of the TC between Staples and Target.  Not ideal, to be sure.  But not compeltely hateful either. :-)

[thelakelander]

Phase II and a pedestrian-scale entrance to the corner of the TC between Staples and Target.  Not ideal, to be sure.  But not compeltely hateful either. :-)

You can see the general layout of Georgetown behind SJTC and Publix.  It has nothing to do with New Urbanism, but it shortens the walk from Georgetown residents to Target or Petsmart.  You can also see where it would have made sense to extend SJTC's main drag, north of Target to exit out on the street that serves as Georgetown's entrance.

[heights unknown]

To me, these are downtowns away from the traditional downtown and town centers.  Designed to cater to those some distance away or far away from the Central City so they will have their own "downtown" or central city center so to speak.

Heights Unknown

[thelakelander]

Heights, in your opinion, what features about a lifestyle center make them more of a downtown "away" from the Central City moreso than a traditional regional mall like Regency, Orange Park or the Avenues?

[second_pancake]

In regard to the Tapestry Park comment:

I've been watching that place, and while I agree it's not going to be much of an impact (too few homes for the number of people working in the area), I also think it's a step in the right direction.  At least the developers did the right thing by recognizing EXISTING businesses that employ a great number of residents and then created the shopping and living based on that rather than a place like Nocatee which is trying to create a place that, lol, businesses would pack up and move to.

I, too, like the way it is closed off from Southside which keeps the shopping traffic down.  The shopping 'district' has tight parking (parallel) and the storefronts are relatively close to one another (as they face each other).  It appears to be set up to be very much pedestrian-friendly and if you work at Blue Cross/Blue Shield or Merrill Lynch, living there would be ideal as you wouldn't have to drive anywhere.