Author Topic: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?  (Read 4135 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« on: March 05, 2008, 05:00:00 AM »
Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?



On Tuesday evening, at the request of Executive Director Michael Blaylock, Metro Jacksonville representatives met with JTA officials to openly discuss the future of mass transit in Jacksonville.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/727

lindab

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 07:36:09 AM »
Outstanding work, Metro Jaxites! Creative thinking, public and private dialogue, persuasive arguments - you did it all. How interesting that BRT is a 1990s  conceived project.

second_pancake

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 08:29:52 AM »
If gas prices keep rising, part of the transit plan may have to include some of those traffic-segregated, bike-only designated bike lanes like they recently installed in NYC.
"What objectivity and the study of philosophy requires is not an 'open mind,' but an active mind - a mind able and eagerly willing to examine ideas, but to examine them criticially."

JeffreyS

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 08:59:26 AM »
If the JTA is on the level they will have found the best partners they will ever have.
Lenny Smash

jmccharen

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 09:23:41 AM »
Amen to that. I'm so glad I started visiting this website again.

Steve

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 09:46:03 AM »
I'm still a little skeptical that they aren't trying to just shut the hell up (eight years of showing a crappy BRT plan down our throats will do that to you).  With that said, the new guys over at JTA actually make a bit of sense, and it seems that they are STARTING to come around.

However, there were a few things that did concern me.  First of all, they said that the East-West Corridor Downtown was "On Hold".  That could mean that it it is being re-evaluated, or it could mean that they simply hit the proverbial "Pause" button.  It's amazing to me how much they are avoiding Adams Street.

Also, the comments in the article about selling your soul to the feds.  Mike Miller keeps talking about how the $100 million could be leveraged to be $400 million (under the 25% City, 25% State, 50% Fed Model, which does exist).  However, if the $400 million is for a crap plan that Uncle Sam THINKS would be good for Jacksonville, then what's the point.  In the 1980's, we chose not to go with Light Rail because the Feds were going to pay 80% of the Skyway.  Who doesn't wish we had that decision back.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 11:09:04 AM »
It might have been nice to be invited to the meeting last night, but JTA aparently doesn't consider someone with experience similar to their own - but without a powerful media forum, worthy of discussion. How odd?

Mike got a big laugh out of the my introduction at City Council as President of the re-established Jacksonville Traction Company, but it could be worse, I might be the Devil himself.

Some thoughts:

Sounds like Southside Blvd. is another BRT toy. Maybe LRT but one doubts it with their history of Subway pricing that even convinced half of MJ that LRT cost more. Has JTA or ANYONE ELSE noticed a JEA right-of-way that runs from Jax Beach, 1/2 way between Beach and Atlantic Blvd... Past FCCJ (*OMG), turns south along 9-A to a point just south of JTB, then West all the way through Bay Meadows, ending about a block from the FEC RofW by Bay Meadows Road... Why is this so important? Well, my Trolleyless City, it's a high power electrical RofW, with no buildings and flat as a pancake. High power that could be converted to 600 volt DC current for electric trains, or 1,500 volt AC..

Echo's of "We are doing a streetcar study"... circa 1980, 81, 82, 83... JTA, DDA, JCCI etc... Results, "only good for tourism (like we couldn't use some of that?), slow (the old movies must have been speeded up), and MUST - MUST - MUST compete with automobiles in traffic lanes. Even the super consultants they just brought in for the "RAIL STUDY", placed streetcar as slow, in traffic and below bus! You guys believe these nuts? When Mike Miller asked me what my proposed route would look like, when I mentioned Beaver, over Hogans creek and on to the stadium. He sat back, smiled and said, "You can't do that, there's no street where Beaver crosses Hogan!"... Was he right? YES! My point, Streetcars are TRAINS! RAILROADS! TRAIN CARS! They do not need to be slow, in traffic or any of the other goofy things we've been fed.

FTA, FTA, FTA, With $100 Million dollars, a private company could build the complete Northside starter lines and have it up and running... The City doesn't want to hear it, and JTA wants to ignore us.

Here's my challenge,

CITY... LISTEN TO THE JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY PLAN, then decide
JTA..... We could do this for you a hell of a lot cheaper and faster, then you could connect to it with buses.

I can't believe that 27 years after I started this fight, the political machine has taken a new approach, ignore the old one, and play the same game on the new ones... Don't be deluded!


Ocklawaha

second_pancake

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2008, 11:25:15 AM »
The only reason JTA would be leveraging that $400 mil is to have some sort of kickback. No one can convince me that any government entity proposing a plan like our BRT is going to use that entire nut to build out a complete mass transit solution when they know they could get well-enough done for less than that.
"What objectivity and the study of philosophy requires is not an 'open mind,' but an active mind - a mind able and eagerly willing to examine ideas, but to examine them criticially."

JeffreyS

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2008, 11:41:48 AM »

Sounds like Southside Blvd. is another BRT toy. Maybe LRT but one doubts it with their history of Subway pricing that even convinced half of MJ that LRT cost more. Has JTA or ANYONE ELSE noticed a JEA right-of-way that runs from Jax Beach, 1/2 way between Beach and Atlantic Blvd... Past FCCJ (*OMG), turns south along 9-A to a point just south of JTB, then West all the way through Bay Meadows, ending about a block from the FEC RofW by Bay Meadows Road... Why is this so important? Well, my Trolleyless City, it's a high power electrical RofW, with no buildings and flat as a pancake. High power that could be converted to 600 volt DC current for electric trains, or 1,500 volt AC..
 


Ocklawaha

You prove once again who this city should listen to. Btw wouldn't this line improve Family  Peyton's property value. That would certainly make it more doable he does like to develop in that area.
Lenny Smash

thelakelander

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2008, 12:21:04 PM »
Ock, you were invited.  You were on the same email I sent to the Metro Jax guys about two weeks ago.

Quote
Sounds like Southside Blvd. is another BRT toy. Maybe LRT but one doubts it with their history of Subway pricing that even convinced half of MJ that LRT cost more. Has JTA or ANYONE ELSE noticed a JEA right-of-way that runs from Jax Beach, 1/2 way between Beach and Atlantic Blvd... Past FCCJ (*OMG), turns south along 9-A to a point just south of JTB, then West all the way through Bay Meadows, ending about a block from the FEC RofW by Bay Meadows Road... Why is this so important? Well, my Trolleyless City, it's a high power electrical RofW, with no buildings and flat as a pancake. High power that could be converted to 600 volt DC current for electric trains, or 1,500 volt AC..

In the article, there's a graphic that shows this stretch of Southside as a potential BRT extension corridor.  Personally, I think it would be a waste to throw any type of rail or busway down these sprawly stretches without a significant investment throughout the older denser sections of town first.  Especially the JEA ROW near Kernan & 9A.  The ROW and electricity may be there, but other than the SJTC, it doesn't provide direct access to major destination points where people want to go.  Even FCCJ would have to be connected with a bus line or something (very few will walk that anti-pedestrian stretch of road, especially during the Summer months) to connect students from the campus to the 9A/Town Center Parkway interchange.

Overall, what people want to see is a grand vision with a price tag attached to it.  If that were done, we might actually get somewhere instead of planning this 20 year game of getting on our knees for FTA funding.  All of it may not be able to get completed in a short period of time, but its at least a plan we could continue to make progress on it by completing certain corridors when the opportunity presents itself.  As of right now, everything in this city is done without any major thought to how that act may impact other future plans or existing neighborhoods.  Just look at the Jacksonville Terminal, Courthouse, Convention Center issue or the critical mass and clustering of vagrant stimulators in the heart of the downtown core for proof.

Its time for us to take a page out of the book from cities like San Diego, Austin, Houston and even Detroit.  All of these are recent examples of places that have found or are finding paths to get  visionary mass transit plans done without bowing down to the FTA's demands.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Steve

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2008, 12:53:18 PM »
With the Southside Blvd plan, I sort of see where they were going with it. Between Beach and Atlantic, you have a fairly solid grid street system, interrupted by the large southside blvd in the middle.  Between Beach and Butler, you have Tinseltown and that group of restaraunts, which they probably believe they can hit.

With all of that said, I think that we should build the system and get more "choice riders" as JTA would say, though the dense neighborhoods, and then try to target the sprawl.  I don't believe for a second that JTA has 40% choice riders (riders that could drive but choose to take the bus, although they might be counting every single Skyway and Trolley rider, since they shuttle to a parking lot), so I think targeting denser neighborhoods first is the way to do.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 02:17:28 PM »
Putting together a railroad company while nursing a case of the flu... All the while, trying to enjoy a couple of days at a Ponte Vedra Hotel...

I said the invite didn't come because I talked to VICTORIA, SCOTT, MIKE and JAMES and told them I was a contributer to MJ but not a founding member... Thus I was NOT included in the speaker section in the last couple of meetings. I told them to correct it, and list me as a corporate member of the community. Well, they sent pretty little cards or E:Mails or something to all, once again, I got nothing.

I knew about it, Lake did inform me, but the only ones that needed this bug was... well it wasn't the MJ guys!

I got lotz of news and even a drawing of our "FIRST DMU" in color, small poster size with some details, floor plan, etc... I spent Saturday with a Rail Car Builder, and we are way ahead of curve, y'all need to know and I'll show up and tell you about it hopefully next Tuesday.


Ocklawaha

thelakelander

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 02:58:48 PM »
Okay.  However, there were no emails from JTA for this particular meeting.  It was a follow up to a meeting we had with Mike Miller and Michael Blaylock last year at Boomtown.  The only email sent was the one I put together to confirm the date and time.
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Matt

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 07:07:24 PM »
i wish i could hop on a train if i wanted to go to st auggie for a day, or daytona, or orlando for that matter...i miss europe
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Lunican

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Re: Metro Jacksonville and JTA on the same page?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 07:12:11 PM »
There are two daily trains in each direction between Jacksonville and Orlando. That should partially grant you your wish.