Author Topic: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today  (Read 4787 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« on: June 19, 2012, 03:49:12 AM »
JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today



Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is headed to downtown Jacksonville.  This evening, a public meeting will be held to share the details.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jun-jta-public-meeting-on-downtown-bus-rapid-transit-today

Debbie Thompson

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 06:56:41 AM »
I was one of us who went to the first public meetings where they took "public input."  It was a road show about how much we would love it. I could figuratvely (maybe literally) see any opposition and any alternate ideas going in one ear and out the other of the JTA officials that were there.  The public input was a joke.  The decision had already been made.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 07:00:30 AM by Debbie Thompson »

tufsu1

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 08:05:46 AM »
This meeting will likely show the almost final design plans....a key thing to look for is how bicycles are treated along the corridor.

JFman00

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 08:48:14 AM »
Are there any *actual* BRT systems in the US? (dedicated lanes inaccessible to cars, stations resembling rail stations)

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 09:20:24 AM »
Yes, but I think its a stretch to say they resemble rail in anyway.  They typically look like bus systems with their own right of way.  However, that's not what's being proposed here.  What we're getting is similar to Kansas City's MAX BRT system.  Buses will share lanes with cars for most of the routes.

Here are a couple of photos of Cleveland's Health Line.  Buses run in their own dedicated lanes.  It cost around $200 million or $26 million/mile to construct.









Here are a few photographs of the Kansas City MAX BRT system.  The MAX cost $21 million or $3.5 million per mile to construct.  Buses run on existing streets and the stops are more advanced than typical bus stops.










Jacksonville will be getting the Kansas City MAX version of BRT.  Here's what a rail station looks like:



Completely different animal.  My advice to BRT supporters and JTA would be to not try and sell their project as rail or being an alternative to rail.  That only sets it up for failure when it struggles to meet the unattainable expectations that come with real rail systems.  Instead sell it was reliable bus service.  That's something Jacksonville hasn't really had in a long time.
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John P

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 09:27:16 AM »
Bold new city of the south!

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 09:32:28 AM »
Yeah, but Lake I've been arguing this point for a while: 

What good are they really doing by rebranding some busses and installing their BRT system on what is already the most efficient and used corridor in the city?  None. Lip Service.  And I'm referring to the Lem Turner route that is by far and away as close as JTA has ever gotten to a reliable, heavily used route.
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cline

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 09:42:01 AM »
^There are other improvements that will improve efficiency besides rebranding such as intersection/signal improvements. There will also be ped improvements in some areas.

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 10:04:34 AM »
Yeah, but Lake I've been arguing this point for a while: 

What good are they really doing by rebranding some busses and installing their BRT system on what is already the most efficient and used corridor in the city?  None. Lip Service.  And I'm referring to the Lem Turner route that is by far and away as close as JTA has ever gotten to a reliable, heavily used route.

Wasn't the Lem Turner route modified a few years ago to reflect the path of the proposed north BRT route?  I'd actually be in favor of doing all the remaining proposed BRT routes the same way, in terms of immediate route modification.  I'm still of the belief that these BRT corridors can be done significantly cheaper and quicker than waiting for federal BRT dollars.  However, this would mean having to live without some of the desired bells and whistles that cause the capital costs to significantly escalate.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:07:09 AM by thelakelander »
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 10:09:33 AM »
Lake, I'm not aware of any significant route changes over the past 2-3 years.

Cline, due to the staggering of bus routes, L7 & L8, the majority of the corridor served, Golfair - Soutel currently runs on 15 minute headtimes.  The proposed BRT will allow for 10 minute head times just along Lem Turner with more infrequent stops, so if you don't feel like walking a mile to the nearest BRT stop, your typical 15 minute wait just grew to 30+

Tell me how it 'improves' the most functional corridor they have?
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 10:35:32 AM »
My guess is they'll not consolidate all bus routes along these BRT corridors, so there will still be some duplicate routing, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 10:57:35 AM »
My guess is they'll not consolidate all bus routes along these BRT corridors, so there will still be some duplicate routing, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.

Therein lies the problem.  I went to some of the workshops, and as I understood it, the L8 will morph in to the new BRT from Rosa Park (at the time, but I think now that's being moved to the fiasco at the PO) to the Wal-Mart at 295/Lem Turner.  That route will run on 10-12 minute headways with stops (I'm not going back to look) at Shands, Gateway, Edgewood, Soutel, Dunn and terminating at Wal-Mart - that leaves a lot of space between designated BRT stops that will need to be filled.  The L7 will have to alter it's route to cover Lem Turner from Soutel to 295 which will increase an already long 30 minute headway to closer to 50.

This proposal doesn't make sense on this corridor.  Period.  IMO, it would seem that it could replace the WS-2, cutting down those headways from 50 minutes to under 25, using the limited, designated stops with regular routes that already go through the area to feed into it. 

Outbound - Kent Campus, Blanding/San Juan, Blanding/103rd, Blanding/Collins, OP Mall

There is tremendous potential for that route (DT to OP) between the X4 (runs 4 busses daily, 2 morning, 2 afternoon - doesn't reach any main hub SMH) and the WS-2, but in order to capture more riders, they have to run more frequently than 50 minutes.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 09:02:44 PM »
Cell phone pics from the workshop.  I'll post the full high resolution graphics and maps in upcoming days.

























"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

JFman00

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 11:34:13 PM »
What I think of when I hear BRT:





This new proposal just seems like a normal bus system.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:37:34 PM by JFman00 »

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 12:01:17 AM »
^That type of BRT (dedicated busways) cost more than rail to construct.  Yes, this form of BRT is basically more or less, reliable bus service.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali