Author Topic: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making  (Read 14823 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« on: November 11, 2011, 03:10:51 AM »
Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making



According to a report from Transportation for America, from 2000 through 2009, 342 pedestrians were killed in Jacksonville, making the area the third worst in the country for walkers - and Jacksonville has no one to blame but itself.  Poorly-designed new centers of commercial activity like the ones at the intersection of Beach and Hodges are a prime example of what plagues Jacksonville.  


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-nov-beach-hodges-a-disaster-of-jacksonvilles-making

jcjohnpaint

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 07:23:35 AM »
very nice article.  I happen to live very close to the corner of Hodges and Beach.  We hate this area and can't wait to get out and maybe look toward Riverside.  One of the big problems is the area is designed to get traffic moving through/ and not slow down the traffic.  Cars usually drive 50-60 mps along both Hodges and Beach in this area.  I have lived in enough places to say this is one of the most auto centric areas I have ever lived. 

simms3

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 07:28:30 AM »
Our team just sold the Edgewood Retail District off market to a Canadian Pension Fund for close to $100M (excluding the Lowe's)!  It's laid out well and has nice designs, some apartments and lofts surround it and a MARTA station is a block away, but it is no "denser" than anything else.  I mean the parking ratio is less than in Jacksonville because people can walk up or ride MARTA, but it isn't decked parking.

Also, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown.  As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.

Kimco is pulling out of Jacksonville and other markets that don't check all of their boxes; mainly they wish to stay in top 20 MSA's and progressive smaller MSA's like Orlando, Austin, and Charlotte which act like secondary markets.

One problem is that nobody in Jacksonville would know what to do if a parking garage were attached to a Target or Dick's or Publix.  Somewhat interesting story, many intown ATL grocers and big boxes are in dense multi-floor centers with a parking garage in the middle, so people here are used to it.  In fact there are two Publixes I go to and each has a parking garage either underground or in the middle, and the Target I go to has parking underneath, and the Walmart I go to has parking underneath.  However, we are selling a Sembler development called the Prado, which is shadow-anchored by Target and anchored by Staples, Lifetime Fitness, and Publix, and it has a 4 floor parking garage.  Unfortunately the Publix is not directly connected to the garage, so shoppers risk being out in the elements.  Well, as one can imagine, its sales are considered dismal for such a nice center where retail rents push $50/SF for some of the shops.

In Jacksonville, the first developer who puts up an "infill" type of retail development will see pushback from the community.  People will not know how to respond.  People do not know what to do with garages put in front of them.  Where do you park?  How do you enter the store?  How could it possibly be as convenient as "parking in front?"  "We aren't New York."  Etc.

The infill is going to have to occur closer intown.  Conservative family types closer to the ICW and beach are not going to go for decked parking.  It would freak them out.  People in San Marco, Riverside, and Springfield would easily go for it.
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fieldafm

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 07:43:59 AM »
Quote
Also, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown.  As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.

Strip malls are by nature predatory.  More often times than not they are not satisfying pentup demand, but instead preying on the demand of nearby shopping centers. 

simms3

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 07:47:42 AM »
Forgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing, also did Edgewood Retail District.  It also did Town Brookhaven up here (featuring rental mid-rises on top...tweener location though), Lenox Marketplace (which sold for close to $300/SF if I remember correctly and on one city block squeezes a Filene's Basement soon to shutter, a Target, Publix, Staples, Dick's, Urban Active Fitness, and shops), the Prado, and others.

Check out their website for pictures and layouts of their centers to see the differences.

What we are currently selling (very outdated, has a 4 floor addition on the far end, located right at 285 in the suburbs): http://www.sembler.com/pdfs/Prado.pdf

town Brookhaven (very tweener location northeast of Buckhead, but their largest development to date): http://www.sembler.com/pdfs/Town%20Brookhaven.pdf

Site plan for Lenox Marketplace (now owned by Edens & Avant...4 floors, 415,000SF): http://www.edensandavant.com/oc_center_siteplan.asp?cid=965
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dougskiles

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2011, 07:55:13 AM »
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code?  He has a great opportunity in front of him.  I hope he makes the most if it.

simms3

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 08:00:45 AM »
Quote
Also, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown.  As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.

Strip malls are by nature predatory.  More often times than not they are not satisfying pentup demand, but instead preying on the demand of nearby shopping centers. 

Maybe in Jacksonville that is true.  In the perimeter of Atlanta there is not much land available to be developed and it is expensive.  Anything going up is to satisfy demand, but right now the city is in a transitional awkward phase between a sprawl city and between an urban city.  Retailers that want 6 parking spaces per 1,000 SF of rentable area in Jacksonville may only need 3.5 spaces or less up here, but they still want to go in "retail" developments with other anchors and they still want a certain parking ratio.  Nobody has thought to put up a flat "retail" development like Lenox Marketplace in Midtown with parking above.

See this development in Downtown Crossing in Boston.  Just sold for $128M:



This is the next step up here, I believe.  Someone just has to do it.

Parking garages are really expensive.  $15K-$25K/space to construct.  Land has to be prohibitively expensive and density has to be there for garages to work.  This is a ways off in Jacksonville, but will happen first if we densify the intown areas.  Sembler did Riverside Marketplace with that Publix there.  That same site is large enough for 2-3 anchors and some shop space.  Too bad the density wasn't there yet.  You could probably fit 300,000 SF of retail on that block and provide 4.5 spaces per 1,000 SF on average (restaurants need 8-10 spaces per 1,000 SF).
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tufsu1

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 08:05:13 AM »
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code?  He has a great opportunity in front of him.  I hope he makes the most if it.

I do not....but his main expertise is in transportation...of note here is that he was removed as MPO director about 10 years ago (not sure why).

fieldafm

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2011, 08:07:09 AM »
Quote
Forgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing, also did Edgewood Retail District.

And that is the crux of the issue.
The same developer that created the sprawling St Johns Town Center is also creating a high density mixed use shopping center in Buckhead.

There is no incentive at the moment to create high density mixed-use developments in Jacksonville.  The zoning codes don't require it, and frankly it's way cheaper to build something like Pablo Plaza than it is to build Edgewood.  So, if zoning codes give you the incentive to build it this way... why do it differently?

You can't fault the developer for building the way the city is allowing you to do so..

riverside planner

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 08:08:52 AM »
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code?  He has a great opportunity in front of him.  I hope he makes the most if it.

I do not....but his main expertise is in transportation...of note here is that he was removed as MPO director about 10 years ago (not sure why).

I'm not certain of all of the details, as I was a very new planner at COJ at the time he was leaving, but can say that at this time the MPO was part of the COJ Transportation Planning Division, which was part of the Planning and Development Department.  It is my understanding that he and the planning director had some significant clashes.

fieldafm

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 08:14:34 AM »
Quote
Maybe in Jacksonville that is true.

That's true in most places.

You don't really think that three WalMarts are needed within 8 miles of each other do you?

It makes sense for a retailer b/c depending on population characteristics of a certain area, you can segment out a given population center thereby driving up revenue per square foot by increasing shopping trips.  B/c your economies of scale are now greater, your profit per square foot increases.  That doesn't always work though.

There is a reason Starbucks, Rite Aid, Gap, Office Depot and many many others closed a ton of stores in the last few years. 

simms3

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 08:42:37 AM »
You're talking to someone who sells large shopping centers for a living.  Starbucks is back to expansion mode, btw.  Your getting into complexities here.  Gap won't put a store in a power center.  Office Depot won't go into a regional/super-regional center.  Rite Aid has a failing business model and can't compete with Caremark.  You're comparing apples to oranges.

Also increasing shopping trips drives down retailer revenue.  Small shops *have* to be near a grocery anchor.  Staples *will not* be in a center by itself.  Only Walmart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Target, Sears, and Kohl's will dare to own and develop their own stores, but they all really like to be near each other.  Notice?  Near me the reason why Best Buy has not come to Midtown is because Sembler and other developers were able to put up a multi-anchor center just a couple miles away.  In Midtown there are only a couple lone spaces for an urban format of a big box, and they will be all alone.  Atlantic Station was able to pull in department and upper scale mall stores because they all went in together, thus killing the potential for them to come to Midtown, too.

The reason a pension fund paid a premium for Edgewood Retail District is because store sales are high and lease terms are long and filled by A credit or better tenants.  Why are they high?  Abundant, free parking.  A draw of 200,000 people within a couple miles.  Convenient access to both MARTA and the interstate.  And one-stop shopping that reduces trips...the anchors are Lowe's, Target, Kroger, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Ross Dress, Marshalls, and on and on and on.  Little 5 Points and the Highlands neighborhoods are a walk away, it's all about convenience to the shopper, not increasing trips.

On a very simple level, every retailer has a certain radius pull.  Let's say Walmart's is 8 miles.  Well what if there are 300,000 people in a 10x10 mile area, and it is solidly middle class.  You can bet your bottom dollar Walmart would like to have at least 3 stores in there and maybe a Neighborhood Market to carry the brand name further within that area.  Doesn't mean they necessarily can put 3 stores in there, but if they could...

The problem retailers faced was easy credit and too many people living on credit, so their site selection departments carried over the 3 million person metro formula to the 1 million person metros, etc.

Value is also back in vogue.  The dollar stores, the TJ Maxxes, the Marshalls, the Rosses, etc are all doing really really well.  The Jos. A Banks, same.  In today's climate they can litter areas with stores and do alright because that is where people are shopping.
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Dashing Dan

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 08:51:16 AM »
I'm not certain of all of the details, as I was a very new planner at COJ at the time he was leaving, but can say that at this time the MPO was part of the COJ Transportation Planning Division, which was part of the Planning and Development Department.  It is my understanding that he and the planning director had some significant clashes.
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fieldafm

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 09:05:32 AM »
Simms, you may want to be in the business longer than 6 months before lecturing me.

Quote
Your getting into complexities here.

No, I'm not.  Atlanta is not a panacea for everything relating to commercial properties.  I do significant business in all areas of the country.  Jacksonville's current development model exists today b/c they are allowed to.  Plain and simple.  If you are allowed to build to the cheapest auto-centric method available, you will.  The same people that develop in Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, LA, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc also develop here.  There is a reason they develop different properties there than they do here.

Case in point, 7-11 is coming back into this market.  They were chased off from a urban walk up store model that exists in several cities across the US... and guess who capitalized on it?  The same sprawling developer you all love to hate.

thelakelander

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Re: Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 09:14:57 AM »
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code?  He has a great opportunity in front of him.  I hope he makes the most if it.

I don't think he's against them.  He was one of the few on the transportation transition team who mentioned transportation and land use policies should be better integrated, especially in the downtown and urban core areas.
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