Author Topic: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates  (Read 6183 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« on: October 14, 2011, 03:20:58 AM »
Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates



Metro Jacksonville takes a look at the South's newest light rail line that continues to exceed original ridership estimates: Norfolk's Tide

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-oct-norfolk-tide-exceeds-ridership-estimates

Noone

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 06:05:25 AM »
Now its Jacksonville's turn. Even if its the Trail to Jail. Lets bring people Downtown. Bay St.

Doctor_K

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 11:21:59 AM »
Now its Jacksonville's turn. Even if its the Trail to Jail. Lets bring people Downtown. Bay St.

Trail to Jail.  LoL.  Has a certain ring to it.  A. Phillip Randolph serving the Arena, Baseball Grounds, and Stadium, down Bay St. pas Maxwell House, the Shipyards/Berkman/Club cluster, Hyatt, Landing/Omni/TU, Prime.

Boom.
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fsujax

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 11:25:03 AM »
yeah, well we still have people saying that we dont have the density or enough activity acenters to connect, every time I hear someone make that comment...it boils me over!

Doctor_K

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 11:28:07 AM »
yeah, well we still have people saying that we dont have the density or enough activity acenters to connect, every time I hear someone make that comment...it boils me over!

Ditto.  Only I flat out tell them they're uninformed and ignorant, and shouldn't speak about something they know nothing about.

Gets me a lot of dirty looks, mostly.  But if it makes just one person go look it up and actually do some digging, then I've accomplished something. :)
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."  -- Albert Einstein

thelakelander

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 11:28:36 AM »
Just keep hitting them over the head with the growing list of sunbelt and western that have successfully invested in fixed transit (ex. Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Norfolk, Savannah, San Diego, Salt Lake City, Houston, Albuquerque, Little Rock, Phoenix, etc.).  I find that its a great way to get naysayers backpeddling.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 11:30:26 AM by thelakelander »
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iLenin

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 04:04:01 PM »
Now its Jacksonville's turn. Even if its the Trail to Jail. Lets bring people Downtown. Bay St.
The monorail is something we already have and, in my honest opinion, can definitely improve on.
However the east side is something more important than a train to jail, ha ha
The tSMR has the Avondale Line with the A B & C, leading to the Acosta station (last stop from YMCA station). The Acosta Station begins the Metro line with the D E & F. Transfers available at the Acosta station.
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tufsu1

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 08:56:24 PM »
I am in Charlotte right now and rode their LRT today...lots of new development has occurred along the line...and ridership seems good (most seats taken at 2pm, full trains at 7pm).

and to fsujax's point above, density along much of the Charlotte line is probably less than we have in Jax.

thelakelander

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 09:58:24 AM »
Here are a few pics taken by Cirrus at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=5446995&posted=1#post5446995

LRV maintenance facility and rail yards, on the left


The LRT line in Monticello Avenue, adjacent to downtown's MacArthur Square mall.


Another shot near MacArthur Square in downtown.


MacArthur Square Station in the heart of downtown Norfolk.  To accommodate this station a non-historic low rise building and surface parking lot was lost.


Notice the cafe on the ground level of the office building next door.  TOD comes in the form of small retail as well.


Outside of downtown, the LRT line runs on an abandoned rail ROW.  This would be similar to using the S-Line for LRT.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

fsujax

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 10:29:55 AM »
great pics. Too bad it was a dreary looking day. If only we would have had this vision 10 years ago and stuck with it!

thelakelander

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 10:38:57 AM »
It's not too late.  Ten years ago, LRT in Norfolk was a pipe dream.  We just have to work twice as hard to change things. 
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 10:44:11 AM »
and to fsujax's point above, density along much of the Charlotte line is probably less than we have in Jax.

Charlotte is less dense than Jacksonville and has always been.  The funny thing about fixed-transit that we tend to overlook is the most important indicator to a system's success isn't the overall population density of an area or corridor.  It's the system's ability to efficiently connect pedestrians with a mix major destinations, especially at the terminal spots. 

For example, find a way to connect the front door of a hospital, shopping mall, college, cultural/entertainment attraction, etc. while penetrating residential neighborhoods along the way and you've got yourself a winner in a place as large as NYC or as small as Jacksonville and Norfolk.  On the other hand, connect that line with parking lots and miss direct tie stops to major destinations along the way and it will fail.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 10:46:06 AM by thelakelander »
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tufsu1

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 11:16:22 AM »
and here's another update from Norfolk...ridership still way ahead of expectations...and nearby retail gets a boost too!

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/sixmonthold-norfolk-light-rail-beating-expectations

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/some-stores-near-norfolk-light-rail-stations-see-boost

thelakelander

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 12:59:03 PM »
Love some of the quotes from these articles.  It just confirms what we've been claiming all along about bringing rail back to Jacksonville's urban core.  This happened in San Diego, Charlotte, and Salt Lake City.  Now Norfolk is getting the urban connectivity economic benefit fixed transit brings.

Quote
The boon has continued. Sales at her store for December and January, which are usually slower months, have jumped 13 percent to 14 percent from a year earlier. Riley estimates that light rail has added as much as $1,000 in sales on some days, particularly at the end of the week, when people ride The Tide to restaurants and bars downtown to start their weekend.

Quote
"For the most part, it has brought a new awareness to downtown and to businesses that were relying solely on their own foot traffic," said Metzger, whose cafe sits closer to the tracks than any other business, with windows overlooking the MacArthur Square station.

Sales at her shop are up about 20 percent, on average, in the six months of light-rail operation, Metzger said.

Quote
"The walking pattern has changed dramatically because of the train," Metzger said.

Eastern Virginia Medical School students have become new Bean There customers, she said. No longer worried about needing time to find a downtown parking space, they take light rail to get a quick coffee during class or hospital breaks.

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The biggest benefit of The Tide for Brick House is the commuting option for the staff, Routsis said. Three of his workers who live in Virginia Beach park at the Newtown Road station and ride to work most days. That saves him $80 per month in parking fees per worker.

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From the Civic Plaza station, riders looking across St. Paul's Boulevard can't miss the "Breakfast-Lunch" and "Gyros-Burgers" signs above the windows of Brick House Diner.

"For us, it's perfect, because they get off the stop and they see us," said John Routsis, who co-owns the diner with his brother, Bill. "People know where we're at now."

Quote
MacArthur Center's (a shopping mall) parking office faces the station across City Hall Avenue. Staff members have watched a stream of Tide riders head to the mall from the train and, sometimes, return to the tracks later with shopping bags, said Jim Wofford, the mall's general manager.

That might not represent a gain, he acknowledged, if some MacArthur Center customers who used to drive and park are now taking light rail instead.

Nonetheless, Wofford believes that The Tide has brought bonus traffic to the mall, encouraging shoppers who otherwise might go elsewhere.

During the holidays, "when the parking spaces were at a premium," he said, "we had a lot of folks that actually rode in on light rail."

Quote
At the Newtown stop, though, the 7-Eleven has become an oasis. Riley has added inventory since August to meet the demand, in particular for bottled water, Gator-ade, iced tea, beer and wine.

Sales of hot food have grown to $245 daily from $60 to $75 before light rail. No food or drink is allowed on trains, but customers often have time to wait at the end of the line.

Let's get with the program Jacksonville!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 01:02:25 PM by thelakelander »
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fieldafm

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Re: Norfolk Tide Exceeds Ridership Estimates
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 01:42:57 PM »
Quote
The boon has continued. Sales at her store for December and January, which are usually slower months, have jumped 13 percent to 14 percent from a year earlier. Riley estimates that light rail has added as much as $1,000 in sales on some days, particularly at the end of the week, when people ride The Tide to restaurants and bars downtown to start their weekend.

Not counting the increased revenue from a downtown TIF district with new businesses opening up shop, or increased property tax revenues(properties near fixed transit have higher values) or all of the ancillery benefits of spending local dollars at local stores(where more money gets recirculated in the local economy), or additional concurrency money and jobs generated from TOD or additional jobs created b/c of the construction of the line... just this one small store alone would add about $21,000 a year in extra sales tax revenue from the increased sales generated by its proximity to light rail. 

I am interested to see what the increase in property tax revenues have been from property adjacent to these lines?