Author Topic: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?  (Read 6793 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« on: November 16, 2007, 04:30:00 AM »
JAXPORT: How do we Rank?



The Port of Jacksonville has recently announced two major shipping deals that will allow containers to arrive directly from Asia. Will Jacksonville overtake other ports for a top spot, or will other cities expand just as aggressively?

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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/606

Joe

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 09:04:39 AM »
edit: replied in the wrong thread - sorry.

That being said, it will be exciting to see if Jaxport can expand as heavily into other products as they have been with imported automobiles.

It will also be interesting to see if they can further diversify their trading partners with more deals like this one. Right now, they gets tons of their business from Puerto Rico.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:08:00 AM by Joe »

Ocklawaha

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 10:22:42 AM »
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The math on this dilemma is rather simple. China is building close to 100 new container-loading berths over the next few years, each capable of shipping about 250,000 containers a year, most of them to the United States. Meanwhile, five berths are planned for the West Coast of the United States to receive them. Something's got to give.

Savannah, has real problems all along the Port. 21 miles of twisting river and swift current is not something that they are going to fix in a deal with South Carolina. There are plans for a new joint GA and SC terminal on the SC side of the river. The problem they face along the channel is sharp turns that are impassible at low tide, and difficult to traverse at ebb tide. There is a bridge that restricts entry for large ships unless the tide is lower, added up, this means ships will only enter or exit the terminal on a rising tide. A tiny window, between when the tide is too low to pass, and too high to slide under the bridge.

We too have a bridge that restricts our port, but apparently not nearly the problem that faces Savannah. While our channel is not quite as deep, we don't deal with currents that can and sometimes do slam these giant ships into the banks. The St. Johns River, is not only a shipping river, it also has the slowest current of any similar river in America. Our rail connections to the West are better with direct mainlines all the way to California. Savannah has come on strong and gotten much closer to Charleston in volume, but it is feeling the pinch as the two states work to try and find some solution. Frankly, for Georgia, a deal with Nassau County, Florida and Fernport at Fernandina Beach, might be a better investment. The Nassau River is deep, Nuke Submarine deep, could JPA expand to include a terminal there as well? Why not?

Charleston, has ran into a brick wall that is fighting all port expansion. The powerful lobby and citizens efforts called "CONTAIN THE PORT" are backed by local universities and developments. Worse then our own Courthouse, they planned to expand on a spoil island. Later they moved the whole project to the newly closed Charleston Naval Base. Citizens attacked that plan too as it would plop a huge port facility right in the middle of a struggling minority community. They calculated a semi-truck every 6 seconds and the Port's dream facility went up in smoke. Back to the Spoil island, they have come under attack by upper income land owners and developers that have land along the bay and do not want their view ruined by a port. Now some 15 years into planning, they are finally moving ahead on what might be Charlestons last Port expansion. The old saying that "Cargo doesn't vote" is coming around to bite SC where it hurts the most.

Jacksonville has serious problems too, but none of our troubles seem on the same scale. We clearly have the space, the will and the railroad and highway network. We have a Hurricane advantage that has NOT been unnoticed either, due to our Westerly position on the Atlantic. Funny that I'm writing about a Port here, but again our single biggest stumbling block is JTA and the stupid bridge that was built too low! On the positive side the bridge, in spite of being somewhat new, scores low on safety. Perhaps that is the key to getting a fix sometime in the future, but I doubt I'll see it! We once had TWO RAILROADS to Mayport and a wide open river, "had," being the key word. Have we approached Nassau County with a joint plan or project? Combined with a critical lack of vision, we alone are to blame if we don't take this prize. But perhaps our transportation planners explain why some animals eat their young!


Ocklawaha

zoo

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 11:51:19 AM »
Don't forget the global warming/weather component. Notice how many of the ports above Jacksonville were located on the Gulf Coast in Louisiana & Tx! How many of those ships/containers were affected by the recent hurricane seasons?!?!?

thelakelander

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 12:49:55 PM »
You know me, just playing Devil's Adovcate.

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Our rail connections to the West are better with direct mainlines all the way to California.

Why would a shipper from China, bypass the West Coast ports to go around to the East Coast to ship goods back to the West Coast?  In the event that a reason was found, why go all the way to the Atlantic Coast, as opposed to Houston?  It seems that their targeted expansion to the East Coast is to better serve this half of the US, not the West.

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Savannah has come on strong and gotten much closer to Charleston in volume, but it is feeling the pinch as the two states work to try and find some solution. Frankly, for Georgia, a deal with Nassau County, Florida and Fernport at Fernandina Beach, might be a better investment. The Nassau River is deep, Nuke Submarine deep, could JPA expand to include a terminal there as well? Why not?

Savannah's port is operated by the Georgia Port Authority.  If no more growth is possible for port expansion in the area, then what about Brunswick or another spot along the Georgia Coast?  Also, it appears that Savannah has more land potentially available for future port expansion, just east of the US 17 bridge, then Jax Port does altogether (once the two new terminals are fully developed).

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Jacksonville has serious problems too, but none of our troubles seem on the same scale. We clearly have the space, the will and the railroad and highway network.

Speaking of containers, we're already more than a million below Savannah, Norfolk and Charleston right now.  The two recent deals, if fully built out will only bring us up to a level playing field, assuming that these places are not successful in any of their efforts to expand, which is unlikely.  Once we get to that point, then land really does become an issue, since most of the available riverfront land will have then be developed.

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Don't forget the global warming/weather component. Notice how many of the ports above Jacksonville were located on the Gulf Coast in Louisiana & Tx! How many of those ships/containers were affected by the recent hurricane seasons?!?!?

Most of those ports ship oil.  That's a product that will always keep them high, in terms of tonnage, as long as there are reserves.  It also helps that products like steel, grain, corn, etc. that are produced in the Midwest are shipped down the Mississippi.  Our main competitors in the container business will be the East Coast ports.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ocklawaha

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 04:04:27 PM »
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Why would a shipper from China, bypass the West Coast ports to go around to the East Coast to ship goods back to the West Coast?  In the event that a reason was found, why go all the way to the Atlantic Coast, as opposed to Houston?  It seems that their targeted expansion to the East Coast is to better serve this half of the US, not the West.

With the West Coast hitting gridlock and no more available land or massive projects are in the pipeline, it MIGHT really be cheaper to land the product here and back ship. On the other hand, depending on where the product originates, cheaper to come through the Indian Ocean and Med, before crossing the pond. Even with the new canal, Panama is looking at huge backups in traffic. Ships have to wait far too long to get through. The Gulf Coast Ports are also on alluvial rivers, like Savannah and Charleston. These rivers are much harder to deal with in keeping the channels open, or in navigation of currents. Seasonal flooding in the Midwest and Southwest will continue to cause "a New Orleans" effect of filling in the channels. That leaves Gulfport is small and exposed, Mobile, Pensacola and Panama City are shallow water bays, also exposed to storms. Tampa? Shallow water and narrow channel. Manatee, Miami, Everglades, Canaveral? Not much room, those with room don't have decent rail service. Next in line? Jacksonville.

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Savannah's port is operated by the Georgia Port Authority.  If no more growth is possible for port expansion in the area, then what about Brunswick or another spot along the Georgia Coast?  Also, it appears that Savannah has more land potentially available for future port expansion, just east of the US 17 bridge, then Jax Port does altogether (once the two new terminals are fully developed).

The problems with expansion are myriad in Savannah. While they are going to do some expansion, they are talking about more then 1,000 acres to gain a half million containers. WHY? Wetlands, channel, location and other factors that are causing them to gobble up land to preserve more nature, then to move containers. If your ship came through Panama, you add 125 miles to the trip and take away railroad mainlines. NS is trying to add some capacity on the Charlotte-Savannah route, but this is hardly the FEC we are talking about, it's barely equal to our line to Fernandina Beach. I agree that Brunswick has possibilities but it is not unlike some of Savannah in that it's rail access is even worse. Brunswick or some of the other GPA Ports along the coast are out on Coastal Islands. These are not on rail mainlines. These are not on branches off of mainlines. These ARE many miles down long, slow and sometimes light track. Several of the Ports are not even on a major railroad.

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Speaking of containers, we're already more than a million below Savannah, Norfolk and Charleston right now.  The two recent deals, if fully built out will only bring us up to a level playing field, assuming that these places are not successful in any of their efforts to expand, which is unlikely.  Once we get to that point, then land really does become an issue, since most of the available riverfront land will have then be developed.
I think it's amazing how much land we "have" for our Port future. That Intercoastal Waterway and those "other" streams like the Broward, Dunns Creek, Clapboard Creek, Trout, Nassau Rivers may all come into play when the big bucks start flowing. We CAN move some of those smaller bridges for a net gain, much faster then Savannah can pump up land on a spoil or Charleston can get approved to bulldoze more history. This is Jacksonville, what do we care about our history? We might not like it, but this is the way the game is usually played. I don't think we'll see the container cranes in the preserve, but right up to it? YOU BET! To those who built those expensive homes along the lower river? GONE!

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Most of those (GULF COAST) ports ship oil.  That's a product that will always keep them high, in terms of tonnage, as long as there are reserves.  It also helps that products like steel, grain, corn, etc. that are produced in the Midwest are shipped down the Mississippi.  Our main competitors in the container business will be the East Coast ports.

Add to that chemicals, sugars and wheat grain. Once we completely surrender all of our industrial might to the Orient, we will have to continue to be the "breadbasket". The South will continue to supply the raw materials that have always been our mainstay. As our money is devalued by this shift, we will no longer have the funds to make these investments in facilities. I tend to agree then that Containers will be the "pot o' gold" for the West and the East. The Gulf Coast may be out of this game.

But what the heck? That's just my opinion, but then that's why they pay me to play!


Ocklawaha

vicupstate

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 04:21:03 PM »
There are plans for a new joint GA and SC terminal on the SC side of the river. The problem they face along the channel is sharp turns that are impassible at low tide, and difficult to traverse at ebb tide. There is a bridge that restricts entry for large ships unless the tide is lower, added up, this means ships will only enter or exit the terminal on a rising tide. A tiny window, between when the tide is too low to pass, and too high to slide under the bridge.


Are you sure about this?  The only bridge I know of is the Hwy 17 bridge in Savannah proper.  The joint terminal would be many miles seaward of that.  I can't fathom that an entirely new port would be built inland of a bridge.     
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Ocklawaha

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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 05:39:54 PM »
Here are (PART) of two of the reports I looked at. It appears that some of these problems are pretty big. Also, the Joint port is NOT a done deal... Both sides, ie: Savannah, Charleston, Brunswick, GA and SC, keep coming back to the table with "Don't take my containers..." or "Okay, don't touch my sugar" etc... so it may be that the whole thing falls apart. Further, they expect an storm from the tree hugger community. There is also recent input from, ARE YOU SITTING DOWN? Jacksonville and Port Canaveral and Tallahassee! Seems they have us in their sights and Tallahassee and Georgia are in a spitting contest over the Chattahoochee River water, which GOD knows, must flow to SAVANNAH??? Go figure! In short, it will still be 10 years before the first box moves from Georgialina. The land indeed is said to be East of the bridge, I agree, they're crazy if they build upstream, if they build at all. It's very much a ugly compact between two rivals. 

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The Georgia Ports Authority Ocean Terminal is located on the right descending bank of the Savannah River. Berths 1 and 2 are about 200 ft below the Eugene Talmadge Memorial Bridge, while berths 10-20 are located above the bridge. The height of the bridge could be an important variable for a Navy vessel needing to sortie before a tropical cyclone strikes. The bridge stands 136 ft above the river during mean high water and 144 ft during mean low water, and an advancing storm might induce surge that could reduce this clearance. A sortie at ebb tide would be extremely difficult because the strong outbound current makes maintaining steerageway difficult around the turns. There are variations in construction methods, alongside depths and deck heights among the available berths at Ocean Terminal. Berths 1 and 2, which have been used by the N.S. SAVANNAH and passenger cruise vessels, have a solid-filled concrete bulkhead with a timber relieving platform supported by timber piling. The alongside depth is 30 ft and the deck height is 14 ft, both MLW. The wharf has a 22-ft apron and the bulkhead is fronted by timber fenders. By contrast, berths 12 to 20 have concrete-decked wharves and prestressed concrete piling. Alongside depths for berths 10 to 20 range from 30 to 34 ft MLW and deck heights are generally 15 ft MLW. Aprons are as much as 57 ft in width. Berths 10A and 10B have concrete-decked wharves on concrete and timber piles. The alongside depth is 30 ft MLW and the deck is 13 ft MLW. Maximum apron width is 23 ft. Note that the numbering system for the wharves at Ocean Terminal is not entirely consecutive. The numbers 3 to 9, inclusive, and 11 are not used.

The Garden City Terminal of the Georgia Ports Authority extends along the right side of the Savannah River from 2.4 to 3.7 miles above the Talmadge Bridge. Berths 51-60 are constructed of concrete, and berths 51-57 have a steel sheet pile bulkhead with solid fill. Alongside depths range from 37 to 40 ft and deck height is 15 ft relative to MLW. Berths 50A and 50B are timber pile, timber-decked offshore wharves with an alongside depth of 34 ft and deck height of 12.5 ft MLW. Berth 61 also has an offshore wharf, a 38-ft depth alongside, and a 15-ft MLW deck height. This berth is constructed of prestressed concrete with concrete-capped breasting dolphins.


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Savannah would face a more immediate threat from a new port in Jasper County than Charleston, Mason said.

“This deal takes the uncertain equation of another port further down river and closer to the ocean than Savannah off the table for its competitive impact on Charleston and Savannah,” Mason said. “It prevents the cannibalization of the two ports until the governors are ready to go ahead.”

Mason said neither governor would agree to a container port in Jasper County that could economically harm his state’s existing investment in port facilities.

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« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 05:48:46 PM by Ocklawaha »

I-10east

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 05:29:32 AM »
Here's some great news from FCN concerning Jaxport. :)

www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=96709
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 05:36:04 AM by I-10east »

Charles Hunter

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 05:51:09 AM »
When they wrapped the report last night, they said that on tonight's report (at 11?), they would look at some of the 'down sides' of the new activity.  Sounds promising - balanced reporting!

I-10east

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 05:59:02 AM »
^^You're right Charles, the follow-up FCN report will be tonight at 11.

Lunican

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 07:10:08 AM »
I happen to see that last night and it was probably the best piece I've seen come from the local tv news here. Hopefully they will post the video, it was very well done.

reednavy

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 09:51:51 AM »
FCN now has the video up on their website. Honestly, it's the best news report I've seen in this city since I've been here since June of 2006. Very great news and this city really is on the verge. The economy and probably with it, the housing market, will improve significantly. This will definetly add to the already strong population growth. Kudos to Donna Deegan as well, very well done.
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Jason

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 10:33:52 AM »

Charles Hunter

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Re: JAXPORT: How do we Rank?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 06:28:37 AM »
A pretty good look at the hurdles to be faced in cashing in on this economic boon.
Now's the time to get your CDL!!!