Author Topic: TECO Line Streetcar  (Read 11904 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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TECO Line Streetcar
« on: December 21, 2010, 03:07:13 AM »
TECO Line Streetcar



Metro Jacksonville takes a look at the transit oriented development that has been stimulated along Florida's only operating streetcar line: The TECO Line Streetcar.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-teco-line-streetcar

Keith-N-Jax

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Victory for the skyway who would have thunk it. Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes and others. If we do get a street car hopefully its done right the first time. Come on Jax lets get moving.

thelakelander

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 09:13:15 AM »
Victory in terms of ridership & integration with bus network and failure in terms of ability to coordinate land use and urban development with public mobility investments.  However, never under estimate the power of connectivity and clustering.  Just imagine if the we took the same path as Tampa and developed around the skyway stations over the past 20 years?  Downtown would actually have a little street life.
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duvaldude08

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 09:21:48 AM »
I absolutely hate Tampa. The majority of the city is dirty and they can not drinve!!! LOL However, they are doing alot things were not (like having black outs, hehehehe) But seriously, Im glad to see things going well. Hopefully were the second city to restablish the street car line. I personally hate the place and I have two friends who stayed down there for a few years and was so happy to get out of there. Im sure about now, but both people I know I had VERY hard time finding a job when they were there and thats why they left. Has anybody else heard this story?
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Lilysmom5

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 09:53:43 AM »
I would definatley go downtown more if we had something like this.
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DemocraticNole

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 09:56:41 AM »
DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

thelakelander

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 10:19:03 AM »
I've always found Tampa and Jacksonville to be quite similar in terms of aged building fabric and neighborhoods.  Although Jax is older, the majority of the city burned down in 1901.  Thus our rebuilding period took place around the same time Tampa began to grow into a city.  As for the streetcar, just getting the thing into downtown and the University of Tampa would be an accomplishment.  To this day, I still can't understand why downtown was never linked to the initial route.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »
Listen to your citizens and get it right the first time!


The charm and romance of the Skyway can't miss being successful as a development tool, besides it has better seats then those old trolley's.



Its pretty obvious Tampa just doesn't understand what attracts people downtown, their downtown could be as inviting as ours. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself which street scene you'd rather step into with your $500 million dollar development?

We've got Potato-Chip-Trucks and a Skyway... The Skyway is "obviously superior"  to streetcars, it only cost Tampa $32 Million to build the original 2.2 mile line, but in JACKSONVILLE, we spent $200 Million on our 2.4 mile monorail.

JTA and JCCI both "knew" that streetcars were old, and slow, and "MUST compete with automobiles in traffic." The "authority," also knew that our monorail would attract 60,000 riders a day, and bring untold development downtown.

Well folks? We would have been the FIRST city to reconstruct a heritage streetcar system downtown 30 years ago, today we'd be number 80+. Funny how with the success of our monorail and all of its sundry Transit Oriented Development that 79 other major cities didn't jump in and build "Skyway's" isn't it?  Just think of the urban boom across the country if we had only shared our downtown TOD success!

Tampa only gets 800 people a day on their streetcar between "Nowhere and Nothing," but WE get 3,000 on our monorail between "Nowhere and Nothing," and ours passes through "Not Much," on the way! Tampa foolishly expected to pay for the streetcar operation as long as it exists, where in Jacksonville we knew a monorail would "make a profit."

IDIOTS!

Just look at that skyline down on the bay, yeah, just look at it!


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« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 10:39:56 AM by Ocklawaha »

Overstreet

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 10:25:28 AM »
What I didn't glean was why they called it TECO Line. Usually that is the Tampa Electric Company.

By the way the Florida Aquarium has the best skinny water mangrove exhibit I've seen anywhere.

simms3

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 10:35:46 AM »
So the TECO line operates in a larger downtown, travels through a dense residential area, and connects Tampa's premiere entertainment district and still only gets 800 people a day?  Wasn't it also free at one point?  Back when I think it was it looked like it still only got about 1300 a day.

Our skyway goes through a rapidly vacating downtown, *some* residential areas, and connects nothing notworthy, AND the turnstiles are often broken and/or inaccurate and we still have about 2000 riders a day.  OK, go Skyway.  If TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

I think $2.50 one way is steep and $5.00 all day is also steep for public transit.  If Tampa were a city where you did not need a car, then $10 all day to use transit would actually be a deal compared to maintaining a car, but $5 + car is not a deal.
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duvaldude08

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 10:38:25 AM »
DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

^^^Oh yeah of course. I acknowledge that. They are atleast getting things accomplished that we arent. I just dont find the city very appealing at all. Just as some people dont like Jax, I dont like tampa. The only nice areas are near USF and Busch Gardens, and there downtown more appealing than ours, but thats it. And as far as jobs, the two close friends of mine were staying down there was before the recession hit. My bestfriend has a degree and job experience, and could not find anything(in 2004) My other friend stayed down there in the late 90's, and after months of searching he found a telemarketing job that paid like 8.00 an hour. I think it may be the job to people ratio. (more people than jobs) Because there have been people that couldnt find work in Orlando either. Being that our metro area is so tiny, is probably why its much easier to find a job here.
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tufsu1

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 10:38:31 AM »
T
What I didn't glean was why they called it TECO Line. Usually that is the Tampa Electric Company.

they sold sponsor rights for the system and the various stations.....Tampa Electric paid for the naming rights to the system...aftre all, it runs on electric power  ;)

Doctor_K

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 10:47:31 AM »
Clearly, this Brian Blair considers Ybor, Channelside, the Aquarium, the Port, the Convention Center, and all the nearby infill "nowhere."
Quote
"It goes from no place to nowhere," says Hillsborough County Commissioner Brian Blair, an opponent of the project.
Did I miss something or is he just part of the 'anti-rail cult'?
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thelakelander

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 10:51:58 AM »
So the TECO line operates in a larger downtown, travels through a dense residential area, and connects Tampa's premiere entertainment district and still only gets 800 people a day?  Wasn't it also free at one point?  Back when I think it was it looked like it still only got about 1300 a day.

It doesn't go into downtown Tampa, which I find quite puzzling.  I also doubt that DT Tampa is larger than DT Jax.  Its loaded with just as many surface parking lots if not more.

Quote
If TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

The TECO line is a tourist train no doubt.  However, developers are building around the line.  A part of that reason is that it does add to the element of walkability, location, entertainment and convenience.  To a degree, it is an attraction itself in a way that their HART PCT can never be.

Quote
I think $2.50 one way is steep and $5.00 all day is also steep for public transit.  If Tampa were a city where you did not need a car, then $10 all day to use transit would actually be a deal compared to maintaining a car, but $5 + car is not a deal.

Due to their route eliminating a significant amount of potential everyday riders (service doesn't start till 11am, doesn't go downtown), it has to rely on the tourism segment, which in turn, limits fare box revenue.  This has lead to a reduction in frequency of service, which in turn negatively affects ridership as well.  This is why its important during the design stage to plan accordingly for whatever transportation mode you chose.  From the start you have to provide a reliable service that gets people to where they want to go in a timely matter.  The TECO Line does not do that for the local population.  That's a challenge Tampa will have to overcome.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 10:53:42 AM by thelakelander »
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duvaldude08

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Re: TECO Line Streetcar
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 10:54:17 AM »
^^^I agree downtown Jacksonville is MUCH bigger. Especially when you include the southbank. The only difference is ours is empty lmao
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