Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[hillary supporter]

What this discussion thread lacks is the social component of mass transit and i don't just refer to upcoming political elections.

Welcome to the thread, Gridsketch. And welcome to Sightseer lounge. The more we have, the better we are.
I feel there is a strong unity of all of us on the social implications gridsketch describes. Whats crucial is to develop a  concrete plan to win municipal support for fixed mass transit. Selecting the appropriate leadership in the upcoming elections, IMO, seems essential. The past mayoral administration has been "ineffective" in moving forward towards fixed mass transit in jax. Such is my point in this thread.

[SightseerLounge]

Personally, I would want one type of rail on the system, but anything is better than nothing! I'll ride!

There is no such thing as "one size fits all" with mass transit.   Transit modes should be used that complement and integrate the best with whatever corridor or environment their designed to serve.  In Jax, this could mean that the skyway serves downtown while a streetcar is more suitable for Riverside/Avondale, commuter rail for Orange Park and BRT for Regency.  As long as the agency running the services can make seamless transferring a possibility, multiple modes aren't a problem.

They still complain, in some places in NYC, that there aren't enough transfers to all of the systems that are currently available. Lakelander, I agree that there isn't that "one size fits all" system! I would love something like Miami to be here in Jacksonville. The Skyway has its purpose. The rest of the potential system isn't built yet. A streetcar would be perfect for some areas in town!.

I would love to ride to St. John's Town Center from, say, Wesconnett. It would probably take a while, but the system would be there. As for the social part, the people just have to be awakened. If the streetcars would have been left in some of the places that they were located, maybe the visual of "streetcar" would be in peoples heads!

People would feel weird riding, and the mental aspect (culture) of riding would be there!

Streetcars and Skyways...There is a positive thing that I like about the skyway! I remember being at Kinkos downtown and the Skyway passed. All that I could remember thinking was, "That thing is much quieter than those els in NYC and Philly!"

If the streetcars didn't interrupt the car culture (at first), and they were efficient (and somewhat quiet), then, they could be of use!

[AaroniusLives]

I would love something like Miami to be here in Jacksonville.

As a former Miamian (born and raised,) you do not want to emulate the Miami model for transit whatsoever. The Miami "MetroFail" is poorly used, poorly maintained, and massive corruption has resulted in the line not running to either the beach or the airport.

The "People's Transportation Plan" has resulted in a lot of tax money gone "missing" and a mere, teeny-tiny link line to the airport (sort of.) And by tax money I mean billions.

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

All of this corruption has resulted in a metropolitan area that needs mass transit (they are well past the tipping point for density and development,) but won't get the mass transit they need. It took 20 years for the voters to get over the MetroFail. It will take another 20 to get over the People's Transportation Plan.

Oy. Never wish for a transit system like MIAMI'S! ? ! ? !


Actually, the county I'd watch down there would be Broward. The county is generally well-run, fiscally conservative, and slowly realizing the need for better, more effective mass transit. I suspect that they'll go with a BRT system, but at least it will run to the damned airport and beach! 

[stjr]

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

Aaronius, I'd swear I've heard that same talk in some quarters about our Skyway.  But, some here say the concept is a Jax problem, not a people mover problem.  Lake thinks the Metromover is a success (even though the ridership numbers are a pittance, given Miami's population, and they are riding it for free).  Also, not sure what the Miami system was projected to carry versus actual since no one has answered that question yet.

[CS Foltz]

Heads up there stjr..................I expect tufsu to weigh in on this one! I await with baited breath to see how this is going to be spun!

[tufsu1]

yes I wil weigh in

stjr is constantly providing a moving target....what does ridership compared to metro. pop. have to do w/ anything? 

I ask because you say streetcars are the way to go here in Jax....but my guess is a 10 mile system that covers Riverside-Downtown-Stadium-Springfield would still average no more than 20,000 riders a day...so if ridership is a major factor, why would $100 million for streetcars be "more successful" than $100 million spent at the I-95/JTB interchange (with over 200,000 vehicles per day)?

[thelakelander]

A streetcar system connecting these neighborhoods would be lucky to average 10k a day.  Yet ridership isn't the most important element with mass transit, imo. The true benefit would come in the creation of a sustainable urban core and the building of an urban living alternative that doesn't exist in our sprawling city today.

[tufsu1]

I agree Lake...juts curious what STJR and CS think are most important?

[stjr]

I agree Lake...juts curious what STJR and CS think are most important?

Tufsu, it is cost/benefit or in, plain English, "bang for the buck".  Priorities should be set accordingly.

Your $100 million comparison is wrong.  The streetcar price is for a new system including both the pathway AND the passenger vehicles.  The JTB interchange is a tiny slice of a much bigger system to which it is adding to and EXCLUDES the passenger vehicles.  You also need to allocate some of the hundreds of millions (billions?) spent on building JTB and a few miles on I-95 that necessitate the need for the interchange.

Once you have a more accurate comparison of costs, weight them against the relative passenger miles.  By example, 20,000 people going 2 miles on a streetcar = 40,000 passenger miles.  200,000 people going in an interchange loop, say 0.2 forward miles, is an equal 40,000 passenger miles.

We haven't even considered other "costs" to society such as energy, environmental, collateral development, infrastructure, commute times, and quality of life.

Tufsu, your simplistic analysis is why we have so many roads and so little mass transit and bespeaks what one expects from a road builder.

[CS Foltz]

I could not have said it better stjr! Rider miles and Ridership miles are two different categories, but I don't speak "Consulting"! I speak in plain language or black and white............quite a bit of difference between the two for sure! Rail would give the taxpayer more bang for the mile, the operating cost and the spin off infrastructure is something that is measureable looking at other rail systems and the spinoffs that took place!

[AaroniusLives]

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

Aaronius, I'd swear I've heard that same talk in some quarters about our Skyway.  But, some here say the concept is a Jax problem, not a people mover problem.  Lake thinks the Metromover is a success (even though the ridership numbers are a pittance, given Miami's population, and they are riding it for free).  Also, not sure what the Miami system was projected to carry versus actual since no one has answered that question yet.

As a "horizontal elevator" in Downtown Miami, the Metromover is effective at moving commuters and residents around the area with minimal street contact. (And, as said in my earlier post, it's a great, cheap tourist attraction.) When it was initially built, the Metromover was a great incentive for employers to locate in vanity office buildings downtown, "Your employees never have to leave the air conditioned comfort!"

However, if one looks at a http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/mover_stations.asp map of the Metromover, it's pretty bonkers. Stations are 2-3 blocks apart. For real? Is that not the perfect distance for walking?

The Skyway at least spreads out their stations a bit.

The shared problem both the Skyway and the Metromover have is that they don't connect to comprehensive transit systems. Meaning that it's possible, but not preferable, to live and work in Miami-Dade or Metro Jacksonville without a car.

[thelakelander]

^I agree.  These systems really don't work well without being a part of a comprehensive transit system.  Until Jacksonville has a comprehensive transit system, the skyway will continue to struggle regardless of where it is extended within downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

I could not have said it better stjr! Rider miles and Ridership miles are two different categories, but I don't speak "Consulting"! I speak in plain language or black and white............quite a bit of difference between the two for sure!

Funny boyz, this is the exact same thing JTA tried to get across a few months back only to have the TU and many on this site loose their minds about "DOUBLE NUMBERS" "TWO SETS OF BOOKS" etc...   Bull Shit! Just two ways of getting answers.

Rail does influence urban growth, even monorails, our own Omni and Wachovia Bank complex are where they are because of the Skyway! Don't believe me? Check the record and give credit to the little scoot.


OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Once you have a more accurate comparison of costs, weight them against the relative passenger miles.  By example, 20,000 people going 2 miles on a streetcar = 40,000 passenger miles.  200,000 people going in an interchange loop, say 0.2 forward miles, is an equal 40,000 passenger miles.

Tufsu, your simplistic analysis is why we have so many roads and so little mass transit and bespeaks what one expects from a road builder.[/b]

talk about funny numbers...wow!

the reality stjr is that I understand and appreciate the value of a comprehensive regional mobility system...in terms of roads and transit, think of it this way....

Roads = Freeways, Arterials, Collectors, local Streets
Transit = Intercity service (commuter rail and Amtrak), intracity service (BRT and light rail), community service (local bus and streetcar), and finally local service (downtown trolleys, community shuttles, skyway, etc.)

Now, sure the I-95/JTB interchange is only a small part of a larger system that serves the whole metro area....but the same could/should be said about the streetcar....building a full regional transit infrastructure for our region is likely to cost upwards of $2 Billion (not including operations)....if the entire system (commuter rail, BRT, streetcars, and local bus) gets 100,000 riders, would that qualify as "bang for the buck" to you?  

[stjr]

Now, sure the I-95/JTB interchange is only a small part of a larger system that serves the whole metro area....but the same could/should be said about the streetcar....building a full regional transit infrastructure for our region is likely to cost upwards of $2 Billion (not including operations)....if the entire system (commuter rail, BRT, streetcars, and local bus) gets 100,000 riders, would that qualify as "bang for the buck" to you? 

Tufsu, I can only answer intuitively at this point.  Common sense tells me that a shared mode of transit (i.e. mass transit) should, for most any distance, be the most efficient and beneficial system to use.  If, as I said, all the costs versus all the benefits were properly accounted for, I fully expect streetcars to come out on top every time in giving "bang for the buck" over the same money spent on a road project.  That $2 billion regional mass transit system you spelled out would appear to be a far better use of $2 billion than spending it on urban sprawl promoters like the Outer Beltway, 9B, and JTB/I-95.  Yet, we are building the roads, not the mass transit at present.