Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[Mattius92]

Streetcars can be added to the north and south banks, but there isnt a way to connect them from the North and South banks, that is where the Skyway comes into play. The Skyway happens to be the only transit option across the river other then bus. Once a Streetcar line is integrated with the Skyway it will surely become more used.

And Stjr to convert the skyway into a greenway it the gap between the two tracks would have to be filled. However I do like the idea of the Acosta being converted into a greenway + a pedestrian walkway from the North and South banks.

However doing that should be left as an last resort.

[stjr]

While the skyway does not turn a profit, can you name any road in Jax that does?  

Captain, I feel like a broken record, but I guess you and some others don't get it, yet.

I don't care that the Skyway loses money but I do care HOW MUCH for WHAT YOU GET.  If it loses $1 million, $10 million, $100 million, a billion .... how much is TOO MUCH??!!  Obviously, I feel we have way crossed over the line.  Remember, almost no one rides this thing after over 20 years of operation AND expansion that promised tens of thousands of daily riders for WHAT IS ALREADY BUILT (forget MORE expansions).  The excuse making on these boards just doesn't hold water.

If you could take the SAME MONEY LOST and get multiple times the return, why wouldn't you seriously consider that?  In business and your personal life, most everyone would move on given this same scenario.  The problem is I don't think may posters here are treating this decision like it IS THEIR MONEY (which, as taxpayers, it is) and acting appropriately.  We live in a world of LIMITS and, sometimes, something has to give to get something else.

Hope this makes it clearer for you.  

[tufsu1]

stjr....the Skyway gets 2,000 riders a day (was over 3,000 at its height)....this isn't much different from the projections for commuter rail in orlando or here for that matte....are those ideas also bad?

[Mattius92]

Jacksonville didnt have a proper transit system 20 years ago when the skyway was first built and it still has a pitiful system today. Stjr do you not get how transit works. It has to be a complete network, and right now our city has a crappy excuse for a transit network. However until we get commuter rail and streetcars. I see no problem in shutting down the Skyway. It just happens to be a system that needs access. Commuter rail will bring poeple from the outer reaches of our city, dump them off at the Prime, then they can hop on the Skyway to get further into the city. Streetcars could do the same, just not with as much speed.

[Joe]

Stjr, Almost everyone understands the pitfalls and failures of the Skyway. That's why the transit discussion has mostly moved toward streetcars and commuter rail.

If you so desperately want to see the Skyway demolished, you should become the biggest cheerleader in the world for the streetcar. Because the only way people are going to recognize the Skyway as a "sunk cost" is if there is a viable replacement system. Then people will be willing to eliminate the redundant system (that is, if the Skyway remains an underperformer once there are other rail linkages).

[Captain Zissou]

I was just asking a question in general, not necessarily to you, but I appreciate that you singled me out and tried to belittle me in your response.  

Believe me, I 'get it'.  I'm well aware that the skyway is losing money and has fallen embarrassingly short of its projected numbers.  I understand that very few people ride it.  I also know that it has many flaws and fails to connect many parts of downtown.  How do I know this? Because I ride it at least once a week.  

I also drive down beach, Atlantic, Baymeadows, and JTB.  These are all tools for getting citizens of Jacksonville from point A to point B.  In that regard, the skyway does a much better job than the other options.  It gets me from point A to point B with minimal interruptions, no traffic, and no frustration.  

Atlantic is constantly congested, has poorly run intersections every half mile, has required countless expansions and improvement, and will require repairs and additions until the end of time.  Just because Atlantic doesn't have the 'operating cost' you describe (which it really does), you think its a good investment.  

In my opinion, the skyway shows much more potential for improving the lives and livelihood of its surroundings than Atlantic or any of the other mentioned roads. The skyway could be a catalyst for growth in DT and the urban neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the skyway does not yet connect the surrounding residents to the destinations downtown.  Its like building a bridge halfway across the river and wondering why nobody uses it.  It is worth the added investment to allow the skyway to realize its full potential.

My response may not be up to your supreme level of intellect, but at least it allows the brainiacs like you to see how the feeble mind of a plebeian works.

[stjr]

I was just asking a question in general, not necessarily to you, but I appreciate that you singled me out and tried to belittle me in your response.  

Well, Captain, no offense was intended (although it appears you have returned the "favor" anyway), and, obviously, I am not nearly as smart (which I readily concede) as you give me credit for as I am unable to tell when you are speaking in general and when you are replying to my post (the only one that questioned the economic viability of the project which is what I thought you were talking about).  Next time, a clearer assist would be appreciated.  I do stand by my point which, to my clear frustration (as you sensed), seems lost on so many others here.  Maybe I should revert to calling this thing the $ky-high-way (just kidding, Bridge Toll  )

[Jim]

Stjr, if the Skyway doesn't get more than 2,000 riders per day as it is with no connection to he residential neighborhoods...just how many people do you think are going to walk on the dang thing?

While NYC's High Line may have helped revitalized some of the areas, an elevated walkway in place of the Skyway will not have the same affect.

I get that you want the money bleed to stop but you're advocating a system that will greatly drop in utilization, remove a transit option for many, have minimal impact on the investment surrounding it and still require annual funding for upkeep and maintenance.

If it will cost $25 million to convert the Skyway system to an elevated walkway, why not spend that $25 million and extend the thing to a location that will have a massive improvement on ridership levels?

[stjr]

If you so desperately want to see the Skyway demolished, you should become the biggest cheerleader in the world for the streetcar. Because the only way people are going to recognize the Skyway as a "sunk cost" is if there is a viable replacement system. Then people will be willing to eliminate the redundant system (that is, if the Skyway remains an underperformer once there are other rail linkages).

Joe, thank you!  We are 100% on the same page.  I have made this point repeatedly in countless posts over countless threads on this subject right up until today.  Check out my posts.  I LOVE the streetcar.  Bring it on.

[thelakelander]

What Joe is implying is to leave the skyway in place and construct the streetcar system first.  Then if the skyway does not perform, then push for it's elimination.  You seem to be implying to demolish the skyway first and then construct the streetcar.

[stjr]

Stjr, if the Skyway doesn't get more than 2,000 riders per day as it is with no connection to he residential neighborhoods...just how many people do you think are going to walk on the dang thing?

While NYC's High Line may have helped revitalized some of the areas, an elevated walkway in place of the Skyway will not have the same affect.

I get that you want the money bleed to stop but you're advocating a system that will greatly drop in utilization, remove a transit option for many, have minimal impact on the investment surrounding it and still require annual funding for upkeep and maintenance.

If it will cost $25 million to convert the Skyway system to an elevated walkway, why not spend that $25 million and extend the thing to a location that will have a massive improvement on ridership levels?

Aaah, Jim, to your last comment.... the Skyway was supposed to get some 30,000/day with what ALREADY EXISTS, no further connections necessary.  And, its over 90% short of that!  Therein, is a major fallacy to the expansion argument.  We will just be chasing more rainbows with another expansion.

Jim, to the rest of your post, let's consider some sequencing here.  Ponder this:

1. Approve a proper streetcar plan that includes Downtown, Riverside, Springfield/Shands, LaVilla/Myrtle/Beaver Street, the Stadium area, and San Marco (let's not get into the river crossing right now - that's been hammered well on other threads).

2. Build the entire streetcar system in one continuous construction phase, starting with its core Downtown.

3. Promise taxpayers that as the streetcar system comes on line Downtown, the Skyway will be closed.

4. Once closed, we can determine alternate uses for the Skyway track/ROW.  Maybe property owners along its lines would have some creative "redevelopment" ideas on using it.  Such as a downtown jogging trail free of traffic?  An art festival walkway?  A kiosk lined shopping plaza?  A neat place to have a meal with a view?  Or, all of these and more.  [On the High Line, they are building a water feature and the chaise lounge chairs for sun bathing are already being used!]  Perhaps the Skyway stations that eat into existing city blocks (most of which are devoid presently of buildings) could be incorporated into new buildings on those blocks so that more inter-connective uses could be derived.

We need start taking what we have and making more of it - not necessarily with (just) money, but creativity and vision.  Other cites do it successfully, why not us?

[stjr]

What Joe is implying is to leave the skyway in place and construct the streetcar system first.  Then if the skyway does not perform, then push for it's elimination.  You seem to be implying to demolish the skyway first and then construct the streetcar.

Lake, just saw this after I posted my response to Jim.   Don't know that we ever discussed explicitly the order of things before, but, as you can see above, I am flexible.  I am looking mainly for the end result.

[thelakelander]

Well we're on the same page then. I also would rather see money invested in streetcars and commuter rail before considering extending the skyway. However, I believe that if this is properly done, you will see a significant increase in skyway ridership as a result.

[Jim]

Aaah, Jim, to your last comment.... the Skyway was supposed to get some 30,000/day with what ALREADY EXISTS, no further connections necessary.  And, its over 90% short of that!  Therein, is a major fallacy to the expansion argument.  We will just be chasing more rainbows with another expansion.

I'm under the impression that the 30k figure was attributed to full build out which includes expansion well beyond where it sits now.

No one would ever give a 30k figure for just the core when barely 2k people live there and around 30k work there.  

And then you point out a streetcar line that would traverse into the very neighborhoods that would make the Skyway successful but don't want to give the Skyway that option?  

Why not a Skyway system with valid extensions and stations with a street car feeder and complementary system fed overall with commuter rail?

[thelakelander]

The initial skyway ridership numbers assumed a ton of things that did not happen.  These include:

1. A route that connected destinations like Shands Jacksonville with DT.  Instead the route was modified to go from no where to no where.

2. That downtown would continue to grow and densify. The exact opposite happened.

3. That parking garages would not be continued to be constructed with nearly every major project in DT.  The exact opposite happened.  We love our garages.  Its 2010 and the Mayor's Office and JEDC still want to build more (see Landing parking issue).

4. That a regional wide rail system would feed it with riders.  Still waiting on that rail system.

After all of this, why expect different results?