Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[stjr]

Streetcars promote growth and economic development in a myriad of different ways. They make downtown housing more affordable, bring in more customers to support downtown retail, improve property values, create a more vibrant city, and increase public safety by keeping more eyes on the street which improves the overall business climate.  In short, the stimulate the type of development that the JEDC and DVI have dreamed about for years but have been unable to deliver.

Hear, hear!  All things the Skyway does NOT do!  And, for less overall costs.  That's why I say close the Skyway and take $14 million a year and put it in street cars.

Where would the money come from? People in Jax get angry if you consider spending as little as half a million dollars on saving an old building, or providing loans or assistance to developers wanting to renovate historic structures downtown. How will the citizens react to dumping money into a streetcar system? You can predict the responses - "nobody rides the bus anyway, who's gonna ride a streetcar" "what about that useless Skyway," etc.

This is exactly why the Skyway needs to be closed and its resources redirected to streetcars.  The locals won't support both and the Skyway is a continuous reminder of the failures of mass transit to date here.  Ock and others think we can have our cake and eat it to.  But limited resources and political realities say "No way!"  Time to get real and make hard decisions or the ineffective status quo will continue.

[/quote]

We had this plan in our city's hands 30 years ago, we should have been first out of the gate with a heritage streetcar system and a working museum.

Ock, you know the answer to this one.  We chose the Skyway instead and it's blocked further consideration of alternatives ever since.  Per my above comment, until the Skyway is killed, it is going to be politically rough going for streetcars as I see it.  Don't make us wait 30 more years.  Sacrifice the Skyway and take the streetcars - NOW!

[Keith-N-Jax]

So what have we done in the past 30 yrs, what have we accomplished? That would be a good topic.

[vicupstate]

Keith, I think at the end of the day, Peyton won the first election because of a political misstep with the Fire Union on the part of Matt Carlucci.

Can you elaborate?  Weren't the Firemen with Peyton from the beginning?

[Mattius92]

SJTR, closing the skyway is kinda stupid. It is built and can be used for a purpose, it was someones fault that it was never completed so it could be used fully. If it was expanded then it plus streetcars and commuter rail will make it actually something to be used.

[thelakelander]

If the mobility plan is adopted by council this fall, a chunk of the funds needed would come from it. Pool that money with other sources (feds, private sector, state, etc.) and you'll have the money to get it done.

wait...aren't the mobility funds from the private sector?

Although, i'm sure this isn't the point you were trying to make, you are correct.  Actually all public money comes from the private sector. However, there are other ways the private sector can help fund mass transit projects. JTA's bus shelter proposal is a great example.  There is no reason we can't apply similar funding techniques for rail, in addition to mobility plan money geared for these projects.

[fieldafm]

No, they were with Matt for most of the early campaign.

If memory serves, Mike Tolbert gets the credit for that... no?

[cityimrov]

Is anyone here going to try and become appointed to the JTA board during the next election?  It looks like a lot of people here care about rail transportation but rail won't happen if things keep going the same way.  JTA could use more people who are truly passionate about transportation issues.

[tufsu1]

If the mobility plan is adopted by council this fall, a chunk of the funds needed would come from it. Pool that money with other sources (feds, private sector, state, etc.) and you'll have the money to get it done.

wait...aren't the mobility funds from the private sector?

Although, i'm sure this isn't the point you were trying to make, you are correct.  Actually all public money comes from the private sector. However, there are other ways the private sector can help fund mass transit projects. JTA's bus shelter proposal is a great example.  There is no reason we can't apply similar funding techniques for rail, in addition to mobility plan money geared for these projects.

ok...that makes sense...was just confused about the "extra" private sector funds

[thelakelander]

Some form of rail will happen if some of these projects stay within whatever version of the mobility plan passes this fall.  Quite frankly, to get the initial project off the ground, we don't need JTA, a public referendum or an increase in taxes.

[stjr]

SJTR, closing the skyway is kinda stupid. It is built and can be used for a purpose, it was someones fault that it was never completed so it could be used fully. If it was expanded then it plus streetcars and commuter rail will make it actually something to be used.

Mattius, everyone of your points has been discussed thoroughly prior to your arrival here.  I ask that you refer to the top Skyway threads in this forum for all the sides to your points.  Three short notes: (1) You are failing to account for the annual operating losses versus the usage and alternatives available, (2) you are advocating expansion without the benefit of a costs/benefit analysis, and (3) on the basis of the original projections, the Skyway is completed.

And an abandoned Skyway actually could have at least one use that would salvage a good part of our investment.  New York City has opened the High Line, an abandoned 100+ year old elevated train platform that runs some 20 to 30 blocks and is now cleverly converted into a version of an elevated "riverwalk" over the streets of New York.  Thousands of people visit it daily.

[thelakelander]

Streetcars require transit based zoning around the "fixed" track to maintain density and ridership. Jacksonville has not shown any propensity to enforce any kind of zoning that promotes this. With this in mind JTA is very reluctant to stick their necks out to lobby and pitch for funds to build something that might get left hanging.

Hence they push for buses which they can redeploy easily based on the zoning whim of the city council. Buses are also a great jobs and patronage engine as they require drivers, mechanics and administration.

Streetcars (or any kind of local transit) requires cooperative and strategic thinking on behalf of the local leadership. As long as they remain reactive, streetcars will never happen here.

This is happening with the Mobility Plan.  The integration of land use and transportation is a major goal of Senate Bill 360.

Read more here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-apr-jacksonvilles-2030-mobility-plan

[I-10east]

That NY "High Line" Skyway conversion idea is extreme to say the least.

[thelakelander]

^The 1.45 mile High Line in NYC cost something like $50 million to construct.  Excluding the money already invested in the existing skyway system, you could probably add a station on Riverside Avenue, extend the thing to San Marco (Atlantic Blvd.) and the Stadium District for a similar cost.

[civil42806]

To make Ock happy?

[thelakelander]

I was just trying to gain further understanding of Stjr's position.  On one hand an argument is being made to eliminate the skyway to save money.  Then as the discussion has progressed, a skyway alternative (replacing it with streetcars and turning it into elevated park space) has been proposed that is significantly more expensive than keeping the thing running.