Author Topic: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?  (Read 12762 times)

Mattius92

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2010, 01:29:11 PM »
yeah, it would be I-210, mainly because however names them likes to switch the beltway root numbers up so you dont have beltways like this, I-295, I-495, I-695. But more like this, I-295, I-210, I-204. (Though the I-204 wouldn't be seen in Jax.)

On top of that there is only one I-10 auxiliary route in FL , which is I-110 in Pensacola, and FL already has a load of I-95 auxiliary routes so it would be most wise to use an I-10 auxiliary number.

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north miami

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2010, 09:46:19 AM »


 Billboard:   Experience the Barbarian Beltway!

"Progress,far from consisting of change,depends on retentiveness.When change is absolute,no works remain to be improved and no direction is set for possible improvement,and when experience is not retained,as among savages,infancy is perpetual.Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.In the first stage of life,the mind is frivolous and easily distracted:it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence.This is the condition of children and barbarians,in which instinct has learned nothing from experience"
-George Santayana

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Mattius92

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2010, 12:15:15 PM »
haha, the barbarian beltway, good one North Miami. Its time to change the outer beltway to a commuter rail line, now I would dig that.
SunRail, Florida's smart transit idea. :) (now up on the chopping block) :(

spuwho

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2010, 10:11:47 PM »
St. Auggie sez;

"spuwho, I think you will find that the sprawl haters on here would bring that up  as a reason against building the outerbeltway.  My favorite part though about the 355 expansion was that they started it, put up supports for overpasses etc, and then it SAT there for years before they started it again and finished it. "


Agreed, the I-355 supports over I-55 stood there for years awaiting for the green lawsuits to run their course. My only regret in the project was the elimination of the massive suspension bridge planned for the Des Plaines River. Cost cutting took it out.

Getting back to NE Florida;

I am no fan of sprawl, but we can't have it both ways. Transit only works when leadership supports transit in a holistic fashion, re: transit oriented zoning. When the Times Union ran their last story and editorial on NE Florida transit, people responded that they didn't want it unless it made money! 99 percent of transportation in NE Florida is by roads supported by munis paid back through gas taxes, no toll booths perhaps, but not "free" as perceived. Transit making money is unrealistic. Roads consume money, transit consumes money. Their benefit is public.

The people were very clear with Hazouri that toll roads were no good, so even when roads try to make money in NE Florida people don't like it. Again, can't have it both ways. Roads aren't free, neither is transit.

Cars/Trucks aren't going away in the next 10, 15 or 20 years. So it is economic suicide to think that no further infrastructure should be built to handle future growth. The outer belt will be needed, but NE Florida needs a comprehensive transportation plan that includes funding for all aspects of the transportation equation.

Those that say "stop building new roads and improve the ones we already have" ....or "build transit now", you will be the first people we will go to to ask for tax (or toll) dollars to pay for those initiatives. Neither one is free, neither option is cheap, but whatever you think is better, we will ask you to pay for it.

thelakelander

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2010, 10:23:14 PM »
We can't afford and don't need the Outer Beltway but a great local transportation system includes a mix of viable transportation options.  That includes roads, transit and integrating land use with both of them.  Since roads cost significantly more than everything else, investing a little more in enhancing the alternatives is a money saver for a cash strapped community.
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Mattius92

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2010, 10:26:21 PM »
We dont need the outer beltway, once mass transit is in place, development around it will soon arise, and it will be denser and much better then the low-density sprawl that the Outer Beltway will create.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2010, 10:47:02 PM »
This is where I got it TUFSU1...

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm


Quote
Interstate Route Numbering

The Interstate route marker is a red, white, and blue shield, carrying the word "Interstate", the State name, and the route number. Officials of AASHTO developed the procedure for numbering the routes. Major Interstate routes are designated by one- or two-digit numbers. Routes with odd numbers run north and south, while even numbered run east and west. For north-south routes, the lowest numbers begin in the west, while the lowest numbered east-west routes are in the south. By this method, Interstate Route 5 (I-5) runs north-south along the west coast, while I-10 lies east-west along the southern border.

In two cases, a major route has two parallel or diverging branches. In those cases, each branch is given the designation of the main route, followed by a letter indicating a cardinal direction of travel (east, west, etc). In Texas, for example, I-35 splits at Hillsboro, with I-35E going through Dallas, while I-35W goes through Fort Worth. The two branches merge at Denton to reform I-35. A similar situation exists along I-35 in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area of Minnesota.

The major route numbers generally traverse urban areas on the path of the major traffic stream. Generally, this major traffic stream will be the shortest and most direct line of travel. Connecting Interstate routes and full or partial circumferential beltways around or within urban areas carry a three-digit number. These routes are designated with the number of the main route and an even-numbered prefix. Supplemental radial and spur routes, connecting with the main route at one end, also carry a three-digit number, using the number of the main route with an odd-number prefix.

To prevent duplication within a State, a progression of prefixes is used for the three-digit numbers. For example, if I-80 runs through three cities in a State, circumferential routes around these cities would be numbered as I-280, I-480, and I-680. The same system would be used for spur routes into the three cities, with routes being numbered I-180, I-380, and I-580, respectively. This system is not carried across State lines. As a result, several cities in different States along I-80 may each have circumferential beltways numbered as I-280 or spur routes numbered as I-180.


OCKLAWAHA

stjr

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2010, 11:46:06 PM »
Cars/Trucks aren't going away in the next 10, 15 or 20 years.

Not so sure of this spuwho.  Cars/trucks will be around but over the next 20 to 50 years they may (not if, when?) become rarer for several reasons.  We are fast approaching the limits of road building in much of the country.  We will be forced to rebuild with mass transit solutions.  And, it is very possible that the cost of energy becomes so high due to supply interruptions or shrinkage, that the masses are driven to more energy efficient alternative lifestyles, including mass transit AND dense urbanized communities where commutes are greatly reduced and housing either shrinks or utilizes more resource efficient multifamily buildings that overtake scattered single family buildings.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

jandar

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2010, 11:44:55 AM »
By that same token stjr, all of those workers who work most places downtown and the southside can be just as efficient working from home as they can working an office.

I actually see less travel due to telecommuting. Hell, 95% of my job can be done from a computer and I can carry a IP phone with me and work out of practically anything. (and I have had 3 offers to work full time from home this past year)

What I can forsee is more zones of denser development. Not urban so much, but walkable places.
More people will work from home, lowering the need for commuter transit, and reducing car travel as well.

Most call center type employees could work at home full time, and only spend a few days a year in the office for training purposes.

Basically companies like Fidelity Investments already do a form of telecommuting. Instead of their employees working from home, they have regional offices were people work. Its the same premise.

You will see a growth in telecommuters, and a decrease in infrastructure needs because of this.

spuwho

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2012, 10:22:02 PM »
Orange County Toll Roads under review.

(Lessons for any future tolling of an Outer beltway)

Per the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tollway-probe-20121207,0,6975571.story

Today, the roads offer smooth sailing for gridlock-weary commuters willing to pay the price. But far fewer people are using the turnpikes than officials predicted, which means the highways generate far less revenue than expected to retire their debts.

There have long been questions about the long-term financial viability of the San Joaquin Hills and Foothill-Eastern corridors. But those concerns have now heightened, and a government oversight panel chaired by state Treasurer Bill Lockyer has launched a formal inquiry into whether the roads can cover mounting interest payments to private investors who purchased tollway bonds.

The review was prompted by former Orange County Assemblywoman Marilyn Brewer, who questions whether the debt-laden toll road agency is “viable as a going concern.”

“I think they are in trouble,” Brewer said. “I don’t believe there is malfeasance, but it’s no way to run a railroad or a toll road.”

The roads, which rely on motorist tolls and fees from new developments in the area, have been battered by economic recessions, lower-than-expected population growth and competing public highways, such as Interstates 5 and 405, both of which have been widened and improved by Caltrans.

Wall Street ratings agencies have reduced the San Joaquin Hills toll road's bonds to junk status and the notes for the Foothill-Eastern corridor to the lowest investment grade.

To meet expenses and debt payments, the corridor agency has refinanced the San Joaquin Hills bonds, raised tolls more than originally planned, slashed administrative costs and obtained repayment concessions from bondholders. Early next year, officials plan to refinance about $2.4 billion in notes issued to build the Foothill-Eastern tollway.



tufsu1

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »
the powers that be don't care...it is full steam ahead on the first phase of the outer beltway....and now they're beginning to fund ROW acquisition for the portion south/east of Blanding

Ocklawaha

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2012, 10:54:38 PM »
he roads offer smooth sailing for gridlock-weary commuters willing to pay the price. But far fewer people are using the turnpikes than officials predicted, which means the highways generate far less revenue than expected to retire their debts.

Where the hell is Wendell Cox and Randal O'Toole? The Cato Klan? The Heritage Heroes? Using the same analysis theses idiots use in their constant attacks on anything on rails it's pretty obvious ROADS DON'T MAKE MONEY so they should all be immediately defunded.

Quote
The review was prompted by former Orange County Assemblywoman Marilyn Brewer, who questions whether the debt-laden toll road agency is “viable as a going concern.”

“I think they are in trouble,” Brewer said. “I don’t believe there is malfeasance, but it’s no way to run a railroad or a toll road.”

This is what happens when you try to force people out of the trains and streetcars and onto a mode that at best is 21St Century technology.... 21St Century B.C. (First recorded use of chariots on roadways - in Egypt)

Quote
The roads, which rely on motorist tolls and fees from new developments in the area, have been battered by economic recessions, lower-than-expected population growth and competing public highways, such as Interstates 5 and 405, both of which have been widened and improved by Caltrans.

So the governments took money from transit, schools and other municipal services and funneled those taxes from new development into a money losing toll road! BRILLIANT!

Quote
Wall Street ratings agencies have reduced the San Joaquin Hills toll road's bonds to junk status and the notes for the Foothill-Eastern corridor to the lowest investment grade.

Pretty plain to see that these roads should be privatized immediately and removed from the public purse.

Quote
To meet expenses and debt payments, the corridor agency has refinanced the San Joaquin Hills bonds, raised tolls more than originally planned, slashed administrative costs and obtained repayment concessions from bondholders. Early next year, officials plan to refinance about $2.4 billion in notes issued to build the Foothill-Eastern tollway.

Blowing $2.4 billion on toll roads that nobody uses and nobody wants is right out of the Cato/Heritage playbook. Perhaps they should do the math? You know the math where they claim how much more expensive rail is then highways and Bus Rapid Transit? REALITY CHECK.

Foothill Eastern/San Joaquin Toll Roads - 51 miles:
Cost - $2.4 billion
Cost per mile - $47,058,823

Orlando Sunrail - 61.5 miles:
Cost through 2030 - $1.28 billion
Cost per mile - $20,813,008
That includes both capital and operations and maintenance costs through 2030.

RAIL NOW JACKSONVILLE! BECAUSE DRIVING SUCKS!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 10:56:40 PM by Ocklawaha »

Spence

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2012, 01:28:03 AM »
I hate conveying apathy, but if this troll road must be completed, can we raise a rally cry  to insist the entire 47 mile route includes multiusepaths and lineal parks in each direction, benches, shade trees, restareas with picnic/shower/restroom  and foremost rail-perhaps a hybrid running at a speed faster than the Skyway,and Streetcar - but    touch slower than some commuterrail..

Build the greenWeway and  railway first!

nd oh yes, solar led photocell lightning throughout
Why is the world full of humans a lot less friendly than we ought to be?

Spence

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Re: First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2012, 01:40:10 AM »
quoting Mr Bob Mann

Ocklawaha
July 18, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Looking at the map is often a clue to the intent, in this case it's pretty obvious they don't plan to quit at Race Track Road. BTW Acme, the 'some other road' is indeed Race Track Road. Hooking into Race Track will make I-95 accessible from Julington Creek Plantation. Continuing on to St. Johns Parkway would certainly pull some of the SR-210 rush traffic off of the super-slab and reroute them onto the new I-795 (AKA-9-B).

If they're going to go ahead with this thing, in fact many of these 'things', then I'd wish to see I-795, cross the river onto Flemming Island, perhaps even pulling the stupid Branon-Chafee Turnpike crossing up and merging them together. The down side of their current plan is they will destroy the potential future of Clay County Barge Port at Green Cove Springs. Though Clay is asleep at the helm, just like Jacksonville, their port is one of the very few in the entire country that has marine, rail and airport all within the same grounds. They could convert these assets into a super-job-generator, with extension of one or two of the runways, at the old Naval Base, and relaying the railroad track to reach the docks. BINGO, instant regional intermodal terminal.  For a similar terminal with a slight disconnect to the barge facility which is some miles away, see Huntsville (AL) Intermodal Facility.


If ROW Acquisition is at this point in time unavoidable, and investors are skittish regarding retiring debt, start with rail, lineal parks, multiuse paths and solar l.e.d. throughout!

Provide superslab in 30 years if ever
Why is the world full of humans a lot less friendly than we ought to be?