TPO plan includes $777M in bus, commuter rail and more

[Ocklawaha]

I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!

I would challenge JTA or the CITY to farm out the construction and operations to a non-profit "Traction Company." Allow volunteerism to slash the budget. Before somebody goes off about not getting any help in Jacksonville, let's remember that as the nations 5Th largest railroad center, we have THOUSANDS of guys retired, or not old enough to hold down a run, that would just LOVE to play trains. Dallas runs it's entire McKinney Avenue streetcar line with only one paid employee, and we could probably best them by several techie types and operators.

The greatest economy in going with all local dollars, is we can thumb our noses at many of the FTA regulations for new starts. For example, Tampa, Little Rock, Dallas, etc... all have chair lifts or small ramps with elevated platforms for wheelchair or handicapped passengers. But along comes the FTA with GW's anti-rail bias, and now we'd have to build European style high platforms at every station if we use their funds. So much for anything authentic or "New Orleans" cool.

So if we want an AUTHENTIC, REAL, revival of OUR OWN unique "Jacksonville Traction Company," then we self fund and build. Two years to operation is VERY MUCH a possible goal, even in Jacksonville. World Cup Games anyone? FIFA? Streetcars? Finished Skyway? Stadium Access via multimodal? BRT? Community circulators? You better believe if we land this fish we'll get the FTA and everybody Else's attention... BTW JACKSONVILLE, the WORLDS FAIR is also up for grabs in 10 years or so, and it's been everywhere but the USA for the last dozen or more.


A JAXSON IN DALLAS? MAYBE SO!

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TUSFU1, Thanks for the back up my friend, I've been drowned in the "liar pool" ever since I walked the system with a car load of contractors. You are of course right, RofW cost money and streetcars ALWAYS do better on their own RofW. Again it is something, thanks to our railroad heritage, that our city is blessed with. I have a car builder that is a friend and has told me he will build our heritage cars - the first two AT COST. Stone and Webster Turtlebacks Anyone? Dallas has 5 and in rebuilding a second one, they are willing to horse trade for $ or services. We have FEC, CSX, NS, WATCO SHOPS, and TTX... I'm sure we could find something they need... Also some of the Dallas Turtlebacks CAME FROM JACKSONVILLE! (More views? look em up in photo search).

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

1. Streetcar
These are real and almost the entire system was funded

Tufsu, if this is "funded", is there a timetable for actual construction?  Is it phased or does it all get built at once?  Please elaborate.

2. Outer Beltway
Not included in federal, state, or local funds, only built if private entity does so...and tolls are a user fee....most who scream about taxes talk about government waste....tolls only get paid by those who use the road.

See my questions in various posts #19,34,and 35.  Do you have answers to any of these?  Anyone else?

3. Mathews Bridge
Seriously misquoted cost in the article - the LRTP estimates $215 Million....the $45 Million figure probably is the next project down on the table (MLK interchange @ 21st St)

Tufsu, thanks for the clarification.  As I noted, this didn't make any sense.  I wish reporters would be more careful with their numbers and double checking them.   Maybe they learned how to crunch numbers from JTA  .  No excuse for such a glaring error to get by.  Still unanswered, how do  the six lanes come to fruition?  Another span next to the existing?  Added to existing span?  New bridge altogether?  From the price, it would appear they just add on to the existing span.  Is that correct?

4. Needs Plan vs. Cost Feasible Plan
Total needs were around $12 Billion ($9.3 in roads, $2.5 in transit)...Cost feasible Plan includes $4.4 Billion in roads (Outer Beltway = $1.8B), $721 Million in transit, and $56 Million for bicycle/pedestrian projects.

So we go with almost 50% of the road projects and abut 30% of the transit projects (that's if I include the bike/pedestrian numbers)?  This is my point.  Even with "progress", we fall further behind while we build more roads to add to urban sprawl to put us even more behind.  Ugggghhh!

5. Roads vs. Transit
Generally, the Federal government funds transportation at an 82/18 split (roads to transit)...most communities follow this but are not much more aggressive....in the case of this LRTP, the public funds being expended are around $3.3 Billion...and the roads to transit ratio is 78/22....while the 4% increase in transit seems small, it is in fact exactly what the transit advocacy group, T4America, is recommending for the new federal transportation authorization bill.

Given our history, we need BIG steps, not small steps.  If we were "below average" before, at some point we need to make it up with being "above average".  This is progress, but at this rate, we won't "catch up" until the year  3000.  I was hoping more would happen during my lifetime and I don't think I will make it until then.  Can we get a bigger push?

6. Public Involvement
There were many chances for folks to comment on both the needs plan and the cost feasible plan...this site even ran articles and publicized the meeting dates....it is because of the diligence of the TPO, JTA, FDOT, consultants, and the public that the final plan includes a robust transit system.

I did go to their web site and "play" the transit decision making "game".  Funny, but my finalists came out different than the TPO's.  I was 100% mass transit and 0% Outer Beltway.  Where did I go wrong? 

Tufsu, out of curiosity, can you name names and tell us who within the TPO and outside the TPO pushed for the Outer Beltway? Who spoke up and said it was a bad project?  Did 9B get any further discussion regarding NOT building it?

[tufsu1]

ok...I'll try to answer these

1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, there is potential that the City/JTA may be able to use other funding sources (like concurrency fees) to get it started sooner.

2. Outer Beltway - this of course is a multi-layer project....I'm not sure that a private entity is going to step up to do this, but I also doubt that the project will ever truly die if one doesn't come forward....land acquisition would be done by FDOT with the costs being passed on to the private entity....eminenet domain shouldn't be an issue given that the road will in fact be a lease w/ FDOT getting the facility after some time (I think its 75 years)....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.

3. The Mathews bridge is a tough nut to crack....the LRTP revenues are only for new capital projects...$215 million may not be enough....but bridge replacement funds (same ones being used for I-95 Overland Bridge) might be able to supplement. 

4. Math is misleading...take the Outer Beltway out of the equation and roads were funded at 35% of needs...plus one of the problems with the transit needs is it included commuter rail to Palatka, Palm Coast, and Maccleny....since these are outside the TPO area, they would never have been funded with our area's funds anyway...perhaps they shouldn't have been listd in the Needs Plan to start with.

As for naming names on the Outer Beltway or 9B, I can not....what I can tell you is that both project were discussed at some length...in the end, a decision was made to try and fund all of the TPO priority projects (which have remained constant for several years)....both projects are on this list.

Also note, as Wakeup said in an earlier post, that many of the road projects are on FDOT's Strategic Intermodal System (SIS)....these projects and costs came from Tallahassee and were considered a given....9B and the Outer beltway were on this list...bottom line, of the $4.4 Billion in roads, the TPO only really got to allocate about $1 Billion.

[Ocklawaha]

Take a CLOSE look, In Jacksonville, progress is not always forward.

TUSFU1
1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, Lakelander tells me the City is moving towards funding streetcar w/ developer's concurrency payments.

There are several benefits here that can become funding for expansion or operations. The current parking requirements for new high rises downtown or within the "streetcar/skyway districts," should be eliminated providing out laying garages such as the Kings Avenue, and a factor from the park and ride lots. The sales pitch is simple, BUILD IN JAX = enjoy great downtown transit + no need to spend a huge chunk of change on parking up front. This is done because they located and/or BUILT within the district and agreed to a formula of transit tax + transit passes for employees. None of this is rocket science, but there are many ways to get this done.

What we don't need and CAN'T AFFORD, is to get all swishy - washy about completion of the streetcar as we have done with the Skyway segments. IE: Don't build the damn things if we are not going to address the parking and building requirements for the same. Don't half way build something on traffic that doesn't and may NEVER exist. Currently there IS a flow from Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Westside, Arlington, into downtown, every day. We can not afford to "Do the Skyway Dance" and shift our lines from a sound recommendation, such as Government Center - Landing - FCCJ, and end up with another Central Station - DEAD TINY Convention Center disaster.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Tufsu, thanks for all the question answers!

I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded.  So, the here and now is important for the there and later.  9B, Outer Beltway, and projects like them that create urban sprawl are assured for the next 20 years.  We need to make sure we bring a stop to such nonsense.

The "funded" streetcars really aren't at this time.  And, the Matthews Bridge is just a shot in the dark until it moves up on the list.

I am befuddled by the idea of a TPO when Tallahassee decides 80% or so of the projects.  Looks like political smoke and mirrors to me.

....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.

Well, this is certainly a debatable point in some quarters.  Maybe someone could take FDOT to court over this and block the project.  A protester should buy a small parcel in the path of the road and make a case of it.

Tufsu, what about Wakeup's comment on air quality?  Does the Outer Beltway eat into certain allowances for this that might affect other road projects in the region?

[tufsu1]

I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded. 

This applies to the transit projects on the list too....that's why this is such a breakthrough!

As for the air quality comment, I'm not sure.

[Ocklawaha]

The trouble with the "Outer Beltway," (besides wrecking the former base and 800 ship port at Green Cove Springs) is that it continues the long-standing federal push toward far-flung McMansions and away from dense, urban living. In the 1950s, the Interstate Highway System encouraged Americans to flee older urban areas. Nathaniel Baum-Snow of Brown University found that each “new highway passing through a central city reduces its population by about 18 percent.’’

Carbon Neutrality in Clay, Duval and St. Johns? The Kyoto Accords established targets for the global reduction of harmful green house gasses. There are many ways to achieve this goal. One approach is to produce things using less energy,and the other is to re-form waste into new products to minimize new GHG creation. Companies, cities and transit agencies that do a particularly good job of reducing emissions can sell this value through Verified Emissions Reductions “VERs” and Reduced Emissions Credits “RECs”. A roadway manufactured from recycled and non-petroleum based materials and filled with solar powered automobiles would earn valuable credits from the UN. So outer beltway? Commuter Rail? Streetcar or LRT? Skyway? You tell me which ones will be worth MILLIONS and which one will cost us a "Carbon Tax!"

Not thinking long term out in the sticks here, there ARE BETTER WAYS even if we accept sprawl.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

TUFSU, re: the Kelo case.  After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes.  Was Florida one of those?  If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.

[north miami]

On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:

Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.

The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.

The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.

We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.

"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".

Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.

[tufsu1]

TUFSU, re: the Kelo case.  After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes.  Was Florida one of those?  If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.

Florida didn't change their laws...felt they were strict enough anyway

[tufsu1]

On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:

Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.

The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.

The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.

We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.

"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".

Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.

Some edge cities have developed quite nicely over time...Bethesda and Rockville outside D.C. for example.

Atlanta has also grown up quite a bit....still sprawling, but also a pretty cool urban vibe going on.

As for Alachua County...guess what, they've had a bypass/beltway proposal bantered about for over 10 years.

[north miami]

Alachua county is a whole different demographic,with much more spirited, knowledgeable citizen input and other initiatives.
The ill fated Jax/Tampa toll road during the Martinez administration is testimony to the Alachua outlook- Gainesville area intersts killed Jax/Tampa,which was to originate from Brannon/Chaffee,and has of course easily turned itself back in the form of the TPO plan and beltway.

There are in fact myriad 'plans'- MPO future roadways maps predict the future.

And the public response is typically:stunned incomprehension

[tufsu1]

Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything

CAVE - citizens against virtually everything

[north miami]

Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything

CAVE - citizens against virtually everything
[/quote]


It's all about a shrinking world in the face of 'growth'.
NIMBY is in fact an honorable,responsible position in many instances.......there are now enough new backyards to alter the issues and outlooks.

[tufsu1]

and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?

We can't all be NIMBYs