New transportation center planned for downtown Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

Lake and Ock, I presume that street cars also require a maintenance and operations facility and yard. How much land would be needed to support dozens, and, maybe someday, hundreds of streetcars?  Could part of the Prime Osborn site fill this role?  If not, how about the current JTA HQ's site?  Where else might we look? 

This is something you really wouldn't want in the middle of an attractive intermodal station. Keeping in mind streetcars are a type of LIGHT RAIL TRAIN, with TRAIN being key, a maintenance yard can get ugly fast. The old car barns covered an area from the FEC tracks south through the Skyway car barn to the street, and from Riverside Avenue, west, to the next street. The track work was incredible and the overhead single wire's, become a maze of electric wonders. A freebie from the current Skyway facility, the benefit is BOTH SYSTEMS, streetcar and SKYWAY will likely run on the same 600-700 volt DC system. Current Skyway third rail is 700 volt DC and 99% of streetcars are 600 +/- a few, VERY - VERY - SIMPLE mechanics involved, minus the modern digital "extras". Anybody that can add a car to our Skyway, could wind the motors on our streetcar system.

The old carbarn site is still the best, and most "OUT-of-SIGHT," location we could pick.

OCKLAWAHA

[fsujax]

There is plenty of room near the Skyway maintenance facility that can be used for a streetcar maintenance facility.

[CS Foltz]

lake I understand the scenario! We don't have all of the infrastructure needed in place and most would have to be either built or added as needed! Maybe a better place might be the Ship Yard area with shuttle or transportation (LR) to the various area's? Just not sure where the proposed area is at should be the one? Heck at that rate........JIA maybe better area for something like that with HSR to Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location.  There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.

[stjr]

The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location.  There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.

Lake, to clarify, as this thread is wobbling back and forth, I suppose you are referring to the convention center, not a street car maintenance center discussed by Ock.

As we discussed previously on another MJ thread relating to the convention center, my concern for your chosen site is having adequate access, parking, and the room and proper footprint configuration for an appropriatly sized and ideally shaped building, both for the present and for any future expansion (we don't want to have to go through this entire exercise again 20 years later!).

[thelakelander]

The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location.  There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.

Lake, to clarify, as this thread is wobbling back and forth, I suppose you are referring to the convention center, not a street car maintenance center discussed by Ock.

Yes, I was referring to the convention center.  I agree with the others that the best place for a streetcar O&M center is adjacent to the Skyway's.

As we discussed previously on another MJ thread relating to the convention center, my concern for your chosen site is having adequate access, parking, and the room and proper footprint configuration for an appropriatly sized and ideally shaped building, both for the present and for any future expansion (we don't want to have to go through this entire exercise again 20 years later!).[/b]

Yes, I recall.  However, within that discussion I also provided you with a series of graphics, area square footage numbers, design concepts and existing examples of centers on similar urban sites that would take care of those concerns. 

[Ocklawaha]

Not to mention the fact that linked to the Skyway on Bay and Streetcar on Water/Newnan parking shouldn't have to be provided downtown. THAT is how decent transit and parking policy go hand in hand. "Build your skyscraper here and forget the parking!"

OCKLAWAHA

[Captain Zissou]

STJR, to address your concerns.

From the South, the courthouse site has almost direct access from 95.  From I-95 North/I-10, access requires navigating through downtown, but it's not bad other than Sunday afternoons.

If you look at an aerial of the site, you'll see the complex could be broken up into 2 to 3 areas.  Parking could be on the North side (off the river) and have retail at the bottom to compliment Bay street.  The convention center itself could go where the parking lot is with multiple floors (i'm seeing first floor for support and utility functions, second floor one massive unobstructed hall, 3rd floor smaller spaces).  The third block on Bay could be mixed use with apts above.  

We could take a lesson from the courthouse (if that's even possible) and leave areas of the convention center unfinished for now to cut initial costs. As far as building shape, i don't see how that matters.

I am against any city owned building on the river, but if we must have one, this is the most beneficial to our city.  The riverfront should be left for medium height private uses with taller structures a block off.  I didn't understand what CS was saying about putting something on the shipyard site, but I'm going to go ahead and axe that idea right now.

  

[Ocklawaha]

No focus on "parking needs" in the city center. It could/should be fed like this...

OCKLAWAHA

[Joe]

I am against any city owned building on the river, but if we must have one, this is the most beneficial to our city.

I agree with this point. While its a good idea to take city property off the riverfront, that doesn't necessarily apply to a convention center. We want to get buildings like the courthouse and school board off the river. A convention center can still benefit from riverfront views, since convention planners like to schedule meetings in attractive, desirable locations. Being on a river potentially enhances the drawing power of a convention center. Plenty of cities do it.

Consequently, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to relocate the PO to the river. It doesn't violate the logic of moving city property off the river at all.

Take metro-Jax's plan a put a mixed-use convention center next to the Hyatt. Make the PO a better transit hub. It makes plenty of sense.

[CS Foltz]

Annex could have been reconfigured for a new Courthouse at lots less than what the new white elephant $350 Million Dollar edifice but that's neither here nor there. I concur with the general train of thought........river front would be beneficial from an atheistic point of view, not to mention the proximity of the Hyatt! From my point of view this would appear to be a win win situation for all!

[JaxLanding]

Something's got to give in relation to the current Convention Center (POCC).  We lost two huge, annual conventions this year (City-wide Cheerleading & Firefighters) because of the brand new facility in Daytona (right on the ocean with more space in which to grow their events) and because of a lack of TDC funding to keep them here in Jax.  The loss of these groups hurt the hotel community and my merchants who had come to rely on the annual business in January.  POCC is just too far away from everything.  It's hard to book clients there because there are transportation issues getting convention attendees to and from the POCC.  I would love to see it relocated to a place that would be beneficial for everyone, but no matter what - parking has to be a big part of that new location.

On a side note (and not representing an opinion of The Landing or the owners):  I bet the managment company (SMG) of POCC gets paid to run it regardless if they book business or not.  Sounds like a great deal to me!  Get paid without doing any work, right? How can I find that kind of job?

[Steve]

The solution to me is the Courthouse property, and the parking lot in front of it, as well as the annex next door.

That has to be the courthouse site - we have to take advantage of the only 966 room hotel we have downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

Jacksonville Landing, if we get the streetcar (now funded) and move into the next phase you would be surpirsed what this is going to do for the Landing... NO PARKING involved. Part of the reason, (but not THE reason) for the Skyway's failure is the garage fad that swept the city right after it was built. We went from a few thousand to 30,000+ parking spaces almost overnight. The Skyway was effectively stillborn. I realize y'all have had a bad time with the city and the failed promises of a garage, but consider that we have already built that garage, and are going to build another at the Jacksonville Terminal site.

Streetcar equals transit oriented development to the tune of $5.00 to $1,200 dollars of new investment PER DOLLAR of investment. Had we followed the studies on the Skyway, you would have central station in front of your facility. Now with streetcar, WHEN we build it... THEY WILL COME!

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Lake and others, we are getting off topic on this thread about the convention center, but I will add one comment that was my most significant concern.  [Lake, can you find the the thread we last discussed this on?  I was unable to locate it readily through the MJ search (which, with the growing number of MJ threads could use some advanced search capabilities, like by date, poster, and/or/if logic, etc.)]

How big a floor plate do we want on the main exhibition hall floor (include exhibition hall, food service support, storage, auxiliary meeting rooms, staging area, grand hall, etc.)?  If it is double or more than the Prime Osborn, that would potentially dictate something that from day one would consume the entire proposed site or better.  And, where is the room to expand in the next 20 to 25 years if we wish to do so?  The main exhibit hall needs to be a rectangle or square, not "L" shaped as I recall Lake last suggested. 

For reference, the Prime Osborn is touted as currently having a 78,500 sf (about 1.75 acres) exhibition hall and 265,000 total square feet (a little over 6 acres under roof, with only a very small portion on a second floor).

Serving the community long ago as the "Jacksonville Railroad Terminal," the convention center has transformed into 265,000 gross square feet of space, with a 78,500-square-foot exhibit hall, a 10,000-square-foot ballroom and 22 meeting rooms. The Grand Lobby, a pre-function area, is adorned with 75-foot vaulted ceilings, towering windows and marble floors.