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Author Topic: Gathering Information for Probable Cause Against Your Neighbor  (Read 622 times)
buckethead
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 01:36:47 PM »

Clearly SPAR is only seeking to track any disinformation so they can respond appropriately.

Just like when the White House sought to have "fishy" emails forwarded. No need to call the ACLU.

*These aren't the civil liberties violaters you are looking for... These civil liberites violaters are free to move on*
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 01:55:12 PM by buckethead » Logged

“Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.”
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ChriswUfGator
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 02:02:19 PM »

There is nothing illegal (not saying it's not tacky or otherwise) for someone to stand outside someones house and photograph the people outside.

State the case law that says you cannot be photographed while in public view

I still believe it may be improper to photograph a private person and publish the photos to third parties without their consent, in connection with an implication that a law is being broken. As to case law on publishing an private individual's information or likeness;

Article I Section 23 of the Florida Constitution,

Rivers v. Dillards Dept. Store, Inc., 698 So.2d 1328 (Fla.App. 1 Dist., 1997)

Agency for Health Care Admin. v. Assoc. Indus. Of Florida, Inc., 678 So.2d 1239, 1252 (Fla. 1996)

Cason v. Baskin, 155 Fla. 198, 20 So.2d 243 (Fla. 1945)

and multiple others concerning publishing the private information and/or likeness of a private individual without permission.

But in this case, the "evidence gatherers" aren't acting on their own behalf, or for any commercial purpose. Rather, they're acting in order to gather probable cause for COJ's property enforcement operations, and because this is the scope of their actions, they're going to be held to the same standard as COJ would be under the same circumstances.

And to answer that question;

State v. Parker, 399 So.2d 24 (Fla.App., 1981)

State v. Butler, 1 So.3d 242 (Fla.App. 1 Dist., 2008)

Quote
State action is present, for Fourth Amendment purposes, when (1) a private party acts as an instrument or agent of the state in effecting a search and seizure, and the government knows of and acquiesces to the conduct, and (2) the search is conducted solely in pursuit of a governmental interest, rather than the private actor's self-interest. U.S.C.A. Const.Amend. 4

So where does that leave us? The self-described "probable cause gatherers" will probably be held to the same standard as the governmental entity making use of the information. So then you have to ask yourself whether anything they find can be used to support a finding that a property is a rooming house. That depends on the extent to which someone's privacy rights are invaded. This will be a case-by-case basis, and if the photographs are violative then they can't be used.

However, there appears to be only one case that is directly on point in Florida for the situation we're discussing, namely photos being taken by neighbors and then turned into code enforcement and the owners later alleging this violated their privacy rights;

Town of Sewall's Point v. Rhodes, 852 So.2d 949 (Fla.App. 4 Dist., 2003)

This case involved neighbors taking photographs of private property and turning them into the City for enforcement purposes, and then the landowners later alleging this violated their right to privacy. The case didn't go well for the owners. Even when the photographs were labeled by the neighbors "The Hillbilly Hellhole", the court still found this was not defamatory and did not violate any of the landowner's privacy rights. So that does seem absolutely dispositive that the property owners' rights aren't violated by this type of photography.

But the rights of other people on that property may be another story. There just isn't much law on this exact point, except for the above case, which admittedly seems to find no problem with it, although again I'm stumped because that only related to the owner's rights and not to random people in the photograph.

Honestly, after researching it, I've got no clue. At first, I'm inclined to say Dillards would dictate you can't photograph people without consent and wrongfully publish the photographs implying they're breaking a law, but then the purpose of these photographs isn't to imply that the people being photographed (the rooming house residents) are breaking any law. Their purpose is to imply that the landowner is breaking a law, and the landowner doesn't appear to be protected, according to the appeals court's review of Sewall's Point. But again, that was property not people. So honestly, who knows?
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ChriswUfGator
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2009, 02:08:31 PM »

One more thing.

While the photography aspect, involving photographing private people on private property without their knowledge or consent, is murky on whether the photos are admissible for LE purposes or whether any liability attaches to the photographer, SPAR's suggestion that people tape-record others is plainly and unarguably illegal under F.S. 934.03.
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sheclown
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2009, 02:26:02 PM »

Taking pictures of people on their porches only proves that people are on the porches.  It doesn't prove that someone "lives" there.
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AlexS
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2009, 02:38:29 PM »

SPAR's suggestion that people tape-record others is plainly and unarguably illegal under F.S. 934.03.
How does this work with 934.01 ?
If I talk to someone and record the conversation, wouldn't I then be a consenting party to the conversation ?
PS: Just trying to figure out the legal aspect and not trying to advocate or endorse any recordings.
Quote
(4)  To safeguard the privacy of innocent persons, the interception of wire or oral communications when none of the parties to the communication has consented to the interception should be allowed only when authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction and should remain under the control and supervision of the authorizing court.
And 934.02 ?
Quote
(2)  "Oral communication" means any oral communication uttered by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation and does not mean any public oral communication uttered at a public meeting or any electronic communication.
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cindi
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2009, 02:46:45 PM »

SPAR's suggestion that people tape-record others is plainly and unarguably illegal under F.S. 934.03.
How does this work with 934.01 ?
If I talk to someone and record the conversation, wouldn't I then be a consenting party to the conversation ?
PS: Just trying to figure out the legal aspect and not trying to advocate or endorse any recordings.
Quote
(4)  To safeguard the privacy of innocent persons, the interception of wire or oral communications when none of the parties to the communication has consented to the interception should be allowed only when authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction and should remain under the control and supervision of the authorizing court.
And 934.02 ?
Quote
(2)  "Oral communication" means any oral communication uttered by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation and does not mean any public oral communication uttered at a public meeting or any electronic communication.
i think i is illegal if they do not know they are being recorded.  if you tell them ahead of time it is different - maybe? i don't know.
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buckethead
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2009, 02:50:14 PM »

You should all be at the airshow. A bit of sun and fun could do some good!
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“Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.”
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cindi
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2009, 02:53:43 PM »

it's best to spy on your neighbors when they are all away at airshows.
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ChriswUfGator
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2009, 02:59:40 PM »

SPAR's suggestion that people tape-record others is plainly and unarguably illegal under F.S. 934.03.
How does this work with 934.01 ?
If I talk to someone and record the conversation, wouldn't I then be a consenting party to the conversation ?
PS: Just trying to figure out the legal aspect and not trying to advocate or endorse any recordings.
Quote
(4)  To safeguard the privacy of innocent persons, the interception of wire or oral communications when none of the parties to the communication has consented to the interception should be allowed only when authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction and should remain under the control and supervision of the authorizing court.
And 934.02 ?
Quote
(2)  "Oral communication" means any oral communication uttered by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation and does not mean any public oral communication uttered at a public meeting or any electronic communication.

The bottom line in Florida boils down to each party having to consent, and not just one party. So you're right, that if you were recording a conversation, then obviously yes, you have consented to the recording and you are a party to it. But under Florida law that would still be illegal, unless you had informed the other party to the conversation and they had consented to the recording.

Florida law requires the consent of all parties to a recording, not just one.
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buckethead
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2009, 03:00:25 PM »

it's best to spy on your neighbors when they are all away at airshows.
Now that depends entirely on what you're hoping to see.
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“Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.”
— Plato
cindi
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2009, 03:03:14 PM »

it's best to spy on your neighbors when they are all away at airshows.
Now that depends entirely on what you're hoping to see.
true that. 
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Springfielder
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« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »

That's correct, both parties must consent to being recorded in order for it to be legal
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ChriswUfGator
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2009, 03:04:07 PM »

SPAR's suggestion that people tape-record others is plainly and unarguably illegal under F.S. 934.03.
How does this work with 934.01 ?
If I talk to someone and record the conversation, wouldn't I then be a consenting party to the conversation ?
PS: Just trying to figure out the legal aspect and not trying to advocate or endorse any recordings.
Quote
(4)  To safeguard the privacy of innocent persons, the interception of wire or oral communications when none of the parties to the communication has consented to the interception should be allowed only when authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction and should remain under the control and supervision of the authorizing court.
And 934.02 ?
Quote
(2)  "Oral communication" means any oral communication uttered by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation and does not mean any public oral communication uttered at a public meeting or any electronic communication.
i think i is illegal if they do not know they are being recorded.

Cindi is correct.

If a party being recorded doesn't know they're being recorded and hasn't consented to being recorded, then it is illegal. For it to be legal, they would have to know you are recording them and consent to it.
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samiam
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2009, 05:36:31 PM »

If someone is running an illegal boarding house. and they are not paying taxes on the income that is produced by that house there is violation of tax laws. Local law enforcement might not be able to help but the IRS could.
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cindi
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2009, 06:08:20 PM »

aren't taxes what has snagged up some of the biggest crime bosses? 
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