John Mica Calls Florida's High Speed Rail Application a "Dog"

[FayeforCure]

The Ranking Minority Member of the Transportation and Infrastructure committee ( John Mica) undermines Florida HSR application, by not endorsing it:

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/cms.php?action=Endorsements

Here are John Mica's reasons:

Mica also questions the financial viability of the proposed high-speed rail corridor. He says only the link from the Orlando airport to Disney World would have enough riders to support it.

"The rest of the leg to Tampa is a dog," he said.

Ultimately, though, it's a matter of timing, he said. High-speed rail needs local rail as support so passengers can get around when they reach their destination.

His focus is on getting federal money for regional systems, including $10 million that U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor requested for rail in Tampa Bay.

"Then we connect together with high speed," he said. "Doesn't anybody get that? How dumb can you be?"

U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, a Democrat from Jacksonville who chairs the Transportation Committee's subcommittee on railroads, said Florida's chances suffer from a lack of leadership at the state level.

"The people in charge tell me Florida talks a good game, but every time they have to put money on the table they come up short," she said, saying there's no funding available for high-speed rail in the state budget and light rail in South Florida is struggling financially.

Both Mica and Brown note that California voters recently voted to spend $9.8 billion on high-speed rail in that state.

"They're ready," Brown said.

Castor, a Democrat from Tampa, sees it differently, pointing out that Florida has dedicated right-of-way along the interstate for the line.

"That's a significant investment," she said.

Hillsborough County Commissioner Mark Sharpe, a champion for rail in Tampa, sees no reason to wait for local systems to get going before moving forward with high-speed rail.

"They can work together simultaneously," he said.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article1016211.ece

[fsu813]

he has a point with the need for local rail.

[Captain Zissou]

I've started playing a game called Guess Which Thread Faye Started..... I'm 7 for 8 so far.

[JeffreyS]

If it is one or the other local vs HSR for this funding I agree with him local is far more important. That said this funding is for HSR even if some goes to other systems and he should not hurt the State he represents chance at taking part. Stops and connections can be added later. 

[FayeforCure]

If it is one or the other local vs HSR for this funding I agree with him local is far more important. That said this funding is for HSR even if some goes to other systems and he should not hurt the State he represents chance at taking part. Stops and connections can be added later. 

Thank you JeffreyS.

We desperately need those jobs in Florida, and others (Republicans and Democrats alike) are unified on this for the sake of Florida.

[thelakelander]

Can't say that I blame the guy.  The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months.  The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that.  So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route?  I think there are pros and cons to both options.

[FayeforCure]

Can't say that I blame the guy.  The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months.  The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that.  So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route?  I think there are pros and cons to both options.

Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.

It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.

[tufsu1]

While I do support rail in Florida, there are much less expensive ways to do it than HSR....and the fact is the portion between Disney and OIA will be the highest ridership....other than that, its just an experimental system (like the Skyway).

[Ocklawaha]

Sounds like Mica is right on target again, and Faye, is in far left field shouting don't vote for me, just vote against Mica. Same old S..T

Captain, your game is an easy win, just hit the search button for John Mica, and you get 113 hits, mostly posted by "Faye for Cure."  Faye is blindly supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system, we need development (as in: all of the miles from Orlando to Tampa, between I-4/HSR and the traditional CSX rail system).

Note that not a single one of these excuses have anything to do with common sense transportation, passenger needs, local transportation needs etc... Just a big and expensive toy to point to and yell, "I supported Boondoggle, I mean HSR!"

August 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board:The state's high-speed rail application isn't due to the Federal Rail Administration until Oct. 2. But Florida applied Monday for $270 million from the high-speed rail fund to offset the cost of building the $1.2 billion SunRail line. It's a bit of a stretch to go after the high-speed rail money for SunRail but worth the try for these reasons: The commuter line would feed passengers to the fast train. It would also improve the economic link between Central Florida's east and west coast communities. Then, too, the additional money, combined with $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.

OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

Can't say that I blame the guy.  The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months.  The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that.  So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route?  I think there are pros and cons to both options.

Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.

It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.

Look at it this way:  If there are no local rail options in place first, and thus no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?

If my option is to drive my car (since the bus system in Jax is still quite the joke, IMO), to some HSR station, then take the HSR to Point B, I'd probably rather drive it if it's a short enough distance.  Or fly if it's a long enough distance.  There's still at least two different types of transportation involved: car-to-HSR or car-to-plane.

If local rail was pre-existing, I could hop on an LRT to an HSR station, then go on my way - no muss, no fuss, and chances are, no car either.  More seamless I'd think.

But, as TUFSU just said, and if I may be permitted to take liberties, this HSR argument is setting up to be exactly the potential failure that the Skyway currently is in its present form:  Sure it's cool and spiffy and new, but there won't be any (or at least *much*) in the way of other transit system connecting to it and making it a viable option.

Connecting the Skyway to something relavent, transit-wise, would probably redeem it.  The state is making the same kind of mistake with HSR that'll go from OIA to Disney: self-contained and extremely limited and probably not worth the investment, as the rest of Florida is getting nothing out of it. 

Anything else would be nowhere-to-nowhere, thanks to no pre-existing local rail options.

**EDIT** ...and amen, Ock!

[thelakelander]

Can't say that I blame the guy.  The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months.  The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that.  So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route?  I think there are pros and cons to both options.

Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.

It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.

Commuter rail has been pretty successful across the US but it failed in Syracuse, NY.  So was it commuter rail that was a failure or the plan that was carried out?

I think I've already made myself clear in our past discussions that I have nothing against HSR or rail in general.  When applied in the right setting and designed accordingly it can be a wonderful asset.  However, when planned poorly, it can be a devasting one (ex. the Syracuse On-Track story).  In Florida's case, the HSR plan (primarily the Tampa-Orlando link) seems risky at best.  The fares are too high and the train skips the pockets of density where most I-4 commuting trips actually generate.  Nevertheless, just because I question the feasibility of Florida's proposal, don't put me in the anti-rail corner.

[tufsu1]

I guess we all agree that Florida needs an expansive and intergrated transit system.....which is why committment to intercity-rail (like HSR) should be tied to committments for local and regional commuter systems (like SunRail, TriRail, Tampa light rail, Orlando light rail, Jax. commute rail, etc.).

[FayeforCure]

August 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.

These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."

Why don't you check my signature line,........if you are incomfortable with my reproduction of what's readily available in the press about Mica,..........stuff that should interest anyone who believes in holding our elected officials accountable on transportation issues,.......don't read it.

[FayeforCure]

Can't say that I blame the guy.  The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months.  The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that.  So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route?  I think there are pros and cons to both options.

Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.

It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.

Look at it this way:  If there are no local rail options in place first, and thus no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?

If my option is to drive my car (since the bus system in Jax is still quite the joke, IMO), to some HSR station, then take the HSR to Point B, I'd probably rather drive it if it's a short enough distance.  Or fly if it's a long enough distance.  There's still at least two different types of transportation involved: car-to-HSR or car-to-plane.

If local rail was pre-existing, I could hop on an LRT to an HSR station, then go on my way - no muss, no fuss, and chances are, no car either.  More seamless I'd think.

I am a real fan of LRT, and it's a shame Orlando didn't get it's LRT in 1999. That said there are other transit options available on both ends.

Thanks for bringing up this: no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?

The tourists that will be making up upwards of 50% of the ridership, generally have plenty of mass transit awareness accumulated in the regions and countries of origin. People may fly into Tampa (lower airline prices) and use the HSR to get to Orlando. Once in Orlando they can easily get around the Disney area complex without renting a car.

[thelakelander]

The tourists that will be making up upwards of 50% of the ridership, generally have plenty of mass transit awareness accumulated in the regions and countries of origin.

No doubt.  Most will be on the link between MCO, International Drive and Disney.  But is that ridership worth spending $2.5 billion on and will they be up to paying the high fares?  Its one thing when you're purchasing one ticket but another when you have a family of 4 or 6, etc.

People may fly into Tampa (lower airline prices) and use the HSR to get to Orlando.

A few things that damage this idea.

1. Air fares in Tampa and Orlando are basically equal.

2. Whatever minuscule savings you could find flying into Tampa would be lost on the high $60 roundtrip/per person HSR fare.

3. HSR will terminate in DT Tampa, not TIA.  Thus, to get to DT Tampa from that airport, you'll have to catch a bus or taxi crosstown and then transfer to HSR.  Why not just rent a car at the airport and drive?  Once you get to Orlando, you'll have to rent one anyway.

Once in Orlando they can easily get around the Disney area complex without renting a car.

How many tourist confine themselves to one site during their vacation?  What if the tourist wanted to go shopping, out to eat "off Disney's property", to DT Orlando or another theme park?  Disney should be connected, but the system should not limit itself to Disney.  That only hurts potential ridership numbers.  Plus, nothing good comes out of designing something that completely eliminates your everyday local commuter trips.