John Mica Calls Florida's High Speed Rail Application a "Dog"

[tufsu1]

August 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.

These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."

Faye...promised in this case is the 50% Federal match for new transit projects that meet FRA/FTA requirements.

[FayeforCure]

Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive  given that our dollar has plummeted.

There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida  

Ock has one thing right:

"Faye is supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system"

and Florida is the state that could have this system up and running in 2014. Yay!!

[FayeforCure]

August 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.

These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."

Faye...promised in this case is the 50% Federal match for new transit projects that meet FRA/FTA requirements.

Oh really? Hmmm, I wonder why these dollars are suddenly available as in "other federal funds," and all of a sudden it's supposed to reduce the burden on Volusia and other counties. Surely he would have mentioned the usual 50% matching funds twice before when Sunrail was under consideration.........

No, he's been pulling federal dollars out of his hat, and has previously been called on it by others outside the traditional media which blindly reports whatever Mica says.

Ironically Mica seems to be rejecting the $2.5 billion dollars in stimulus funds that really could be available to Florida, just like Mica rejected the entire stimulus package for Florida that saved hundreds of teacher jobs.

[thelakelander]

Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive  given that our dollar has plummeted.

There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida  

The question is how many will find HSR useful with the crazy fare?  You're only saving 30 minutes on travel time but you'll lose it waiting to catch the train and on the final leg of your trip (from train station to bus/rental car center to final destination,etc.).  Is that really worth $30 a ticket?  MCO to Disney is viable (probably better as LRT) but past Disney, the way its set up is risky at best.  I know in the long term this is only a small part of a larger system, but we need to do everything possible to make sure it works or else there won't be a larger system.

[Ocklawaha]

Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive  given that our dollar has plummeted.

There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida  

Ock has one thing right:

"Faye is supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system"

and Florida is the state that could have this system up and running in 2014. Yay!!

True we do need those things, as in the USA needs those things. What we do not need is another poorly planned rail project such as the Skyway, or Miami Tri-Rail, coming out of Florida. If this mess of a HSR plan is up and running by 2014, you will be able to join the deluded minions as we plunge like lemmings off a cliff.

Even the national numbers from the APTA, just published, demonstrate that FLORIDA DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE on transit in general and rail in particular.

Jacksonville, Failed
Tampa, Streetcar development success, but ridership isn't where it should be as they stopped short of a complete system.
Orlando, Failed, BRT with ridership lower then a pay toilet in a diarrhea ward.
West Palm, Failed, Tri-Rail goes SOUTHWEST and misses the key urban areas.
Ft. Lauderdale, Failed, Tri-Rail (see West Palm)
Miami, Failed, Tri-Rail (see West Palm)
Miami, Failed, Metro Rail can't be what it should because we won't complete it... Skyway anyone?
Miami, Limited Success, DPM, they just decided to give away the rides on their Skyway.
Miami, Failed?, BRT, is too early to tell much, but locals had MUCH rather had the old rail line rather then the "super bus freeway", now talking about opening all BRT to mixed traffic!

Add to this the history of not saving a single traction line in the state and you come up with more Disney like magic.  Pensacola, Fernandina Beach, Jacksonville, South Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Palatka, Daytona Beach, Orlando, Sanford, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Palm Beach, Miami, Key West... All destroyed in the name of "modern flexible bus transit."

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Lake...I've never really thought that $30 is too much for a one-way ticket....I used to pay $25 to go from Philly to Baltimore...and it saved about 20 minutes in travel time and $6 in tolls

[thelakelander]

^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone).  Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four).  The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities.  Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?

[CS Foltz]

Well I have had my doubts about Representative Mica for quite sometime ......but he does not represent me!  lake I have to agree with your thoughts regarding the total cost of any rail system in that part of the world! That would be the biggest obstacle that I can see.........number of trains might be another as well as scheduling but that's not the issue! What ever is inserted there will have to be something that the regular locals can use a regular basis or it will wither and die! Cost will be something that any private/public enterprise will have to take into account as well as the cost to initiate any system!

[FayeforCure]

^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone).  Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four).  The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities.  Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?

Lake, I have also heard that the ticket price can be as low as $20.

And believe me when I say, I know all about large families. I have raised 5 children on my own, and my biggest obstacle even as I lived in Orlando was the crazy high admission price to any of the Disney amusement Parks. My 2 daughters went in recently and had to pay $80 each. You really think $20 or even $30 each way on HSR would be perceived as high by those tourists? I don't think so at all.

In a previous post, I mentioned that I paid just as much for HSR for the same distance in the Netherlands, four tickets. But I was glad to do it,.......it saved me renting a car.

[buckethead]

So going to disney from MCO you can certainly avoid renting a car, so long as you remain a Disney captive.

If you desire to visit any other location, a car will be in order.

You do have the option of re-boarding HSR and giving downtown Tampa a visit. Would that include another fare?

I really do want high speed rail. I would also welcome any Jobs that new construction migh bring. Being but a layperson, I don't really know how it all works out, but most here who do have extensive experience in Mass Transit and Logistics seem to think this is not the best plan to go forward with. In fact they seem to feel it is a bad plan. Is your experience such that it supercedes that of our resident experts?

Riding in Amsterdam is fun.

[tufsu1]

^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone).  Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four).  The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities.  Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?

well actually the train did stop in Wilmington....and I was usually going to the suburbs of Baltimore....my mother would just drive to the train station and pick me up....just like airplane passengers do.

[thelakelander]

So you would pay $100 (for five people) to catch the train from Lakeland to Disney?  I'd chose to pay $10 for gas and drive 20 minutes.  You would save $90 and get there in the same amount of time.  I would not also base a transit system so heavily on Disney.  Most people who stay in Central Florida and travel daily on I-4, don't spend much time on Disney's grounds.

It is not the smartest thing to design a transit system heavily based on tourist and assuming all of your riders want to go to Disney (especially from DT Tampa).  Its really questionable when Disney themselves have no intention of eliminating their own free shuttle service between MCO and their property.  If you're going to invest $2.5 billion on something, it should not be built so substantially on risks.  We should try to actually address the commuting problem on I-4 as well.  This calls for a lower fare service that makes more frequent stops.  If there is really a market for express service, then that can easily be added but it should not take top priority.

[thelakelander]

^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone).  Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four).  The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities.  Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?

well actually the train did stop in Wilmington....and I was usually going to the suburbs of Baltimore....my mother would just drive to the train station and pick me up....just like airplane passengers do.

I guess your case is an exception to the rule.  However, I would not call this common and would not endorse spending as much as $2.5 billion to provide you with that type of service.  Instead, I'd send that train right into DT Philly.  Wilmington would be a stop along the way (ex. Plant City, Haines City, etc.).  Doing this would accommodate your trip, as well as everyday commuters.

[FayeforCure]

I really do want high speed rail. I would also welcome any Jobs that new construction migh bring. Being but a layperson, I don't really know how it all works out, but most here who do have extensive experience in Mass Transit and Logistics seem to think this is not the best plan to go forward with. In fact they seem to feel it is a bad plan. Is your experience such that it supercedes that of our resident experts?

Riding in Amsterdam is fun.

You are right,.....the LRT in Amsterdam is fun and convenient and actually DOES connect to HSR to Utrect and Eindhoven, where I went to visit my mom and dad.

The Utrecht stop would be like the Lakeland stop.

Having experience in Mass Transit and Logistics isn't reserved for Metrojacksonville alone. There are others in this state that have studied and worked in the Mass Transit arena from a planning and user perspective as well, and the vast majority look favorable to Florida's HSR application, though most would have preferred the Orlando Miami route to start with.

But it's hard to ask the feds for an even bigger chuck of HSR money, when Florida has a history of playing politics with mass transit, in particular rail.

[thelakelander]

The Orlando/Miami link would have made more sense to move forward with, since the idea is HSR or bust.  However, its significantly more expensive, which is why Tampa/Orlando segment was picked.  Unfortunately, this short segment is not the best corridor for HSR implementation.  Hopefully, they can secure funds and begin construction on the Miami segment before the Tampa/Orlando link is completed.  At least then, you won't have to worry about the system not being completed due to the failure of an isolated phase 1 link.