Lions Gate

[thelakelander]

It must be Steinemann's site which advertises the whole World Commerce Center site:

http://www.steinemannco.com/Prop02.html

When the Lion's Gate project was full of steam, Weingarten had a website specifically for Lion's Gate with detailed site plans and information for each individual retail space.  This information is no longer available on their site.  I guess they aren't associated with the project anymore.

http://www.weingarten.com/nd/current.aspx

April 2007

World Commerce Center mall planned

ST. JOHNS COUNTY -- Steinemann & Co. Real Estate and Weingarten Realty Investors are partnering to develop up to 1 million square feet of retail space in an open-air center that is part of the World Commerce Center in St. Johns County.

Neither company would comment on construction costs of the project, to be built at the southwest quadrant of International Golf Parkway at Interstate 95, but Steinemann & Co. CEO Duke Steinemann said the fully entitled, 100-acre Lion's Gate at World Commerce is the largest retail project at the World Commerce Center.

"The Lion's Gate development will be a great retail destination for Northeast Florida and a terrific addition to the World Commerce Center," he said.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/16/story2.html

[British Shoe Company]

Lion's Gate, and Esplanade will both be built.   In fact they will compliment each other, and hurt the Outlet's at I95, and State Road 16.  Both sides of I95!  There will be residential homes behind Esplanade too.  Lion's Gate will be ahead of Esplanade because that project's zoning is done.  Duke does not back out because he has purchased residential lots for approximately 20 cents on the dollar in the area.   You non believers should realise that too much money has been invested by Deep Pockets Duke for him back out.

[British Shoe Company]

This development (Lion's Gate) is no longer on the developer's website.  At this point, it is most likely dead on arrival.

As if this is a surprise.

[British Shoe Company]

To me.  The surprise is that people do not think these projects are both going thru.

[thelakelander]

They may get built, but it may take a decade or longer if demographics change when the market comes back.  That's just the reality of the market.

[reednavy]

They may get built, but it may take a decade or longer if demographics change when the market comes back.  That's just the reality of the market.

Correct, and it has been shown that the commercial market is getting ready to undergo a serious correction.

Look at some of the latest developments in Bayard on US1, more than half of those centers are vacant, others around town are in worse condition.

The WGV area does not have the population density or numbers to support 1mil sq. ft. of retail space. Besides, what businesses are going to be expanding as such at this time.

[British Shoe Company]

They may get built, but it may take a decade or longer if demographics change when the market comes back.  That's just the reality of the market.

[British Shoe Company]

10 years?   They both should hurting the outlets at I95, and State Rd 16 in 3 to 5 years.  Lion's Gate first because zoning is already lined up.

[reednavy]

Seriously, you don't know what you're trying to talk about. 3-5 years, when stores are still downsizing, closing, or not expanding in the near future is highly unlikely.

The good times where you build and they'll come are over and businesses are jsut not willing to take that risk. The WGV's master plan is well behind schedule and the World Commerce Center is a complete shell of what it was intended to be. The residential component has not arrived as expected as the market has crashed and Florida will be one of the last states to recover.

That said, 10 years seems like a fair estimate as it'll take a while for the retail sector to recover.

[thelakelander]

There are a lot of things that have been zoned for development that won't be coming anytime soon.  You can look right down the street at Nocatee or Rivertown.  Both are literally ghost towns that were supposed to be booming by now, according to their original predictions.  

The WGV shopping centers are dependent on a market that's not there.  I would not hold my breath that anything outside of a gas station, hotel or fast food restaurant pops up on these sites anytime soon.  We're in a recession and retailers are closing and consolidating, not expanding.  Suburban population growth is also nonexistent.  

[thelakelander]

10 years?   They both should hurting the outlets at I95, and State Rd 16 in 3 to 5 years.  Lion's Gate first because zoning is already lined up.

I just noticed what you said.  For both to hurt the outlets in 3 to 5 years, something needs to break ground this year, assuming it will typically take 18 months to two years to construct.  No way.

[Cricket]

The question should be why do we need Lions Gate, recession or no recession. The WGV and surrounding population will never support any kind of megamall. The end result would only be a slow death for the Outlets. So it's a good thing that Lions Gate never got out of the gate.

What is sorely needed though is a Loews or Home Depot or Ace Hardware but ofcourse in this economy and with the housing market in the doldrums, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. I say that because people who live in WGV today have to drive into Jacksonville or St. Augustine even for an occasional light bulb or washer.  I don't mind seeing specific kinds of stores coming in to address specific homeowners' needs.

[Jason]

Lion's Gate is/was nothing more than a strip center.  The Esplande was supposed to be the SJTC style mega site.  IMO, even the original proposal was pie in the sky because of the lack of nearby residences.  Yeah WGV has exploded the last 10 years but it is still a ways away from ebing able to support another upscale shopping complex on its own.  St. Johns county is content driving to Jax for their Gucci and Hugo Boss (unless they hit the outlets) for the time being.