Seattle Light Rail Opens. 92,000 Celebrate

[Lucasjj]

^ Thats right. I even watched that recently but confused the two.

[Abhishek]

“Light rail was meant to be fed by people taking the bus, walking or biking,” said Rick Sheridan, spokesman for the Seattle Department of Transportation (SDOT). “It was not meant to be fed by cars.”

The City of Seattle has had a policy of discouraging park-and-rides, per the news article on Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009479330_stparkingpic16txt1.html).

Marinating this creates an idea to increase the proposed Skyway extension to go all the way to the Publix in Riverside, build a station on top of the Publix building etc. That will make grocery shopping so much easier for a lot of people in Springfield, Downtown and San Marco. It will also increase shopper traffic between the Riverside Arts Market and Five Points.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Shows what a city with vision can accomplish...  get it together Jacksonville.
[/quote]

really?

There are those that have argued that Seattle should have had light rail 10+ years ago....remember, its a much bigger and denser metroplitan area than Jacksonville.
[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with this statement ,Jacksonville does need to pull it together, doesnt matter that Seatlle is bigger, many other cities our size and smaller have acomplished alot more than we have. People need to stop running to the defense of Jax and its poor vision. This person is only stating the obvious.

[tufsu1]

and the flip side is also true Keith....people continue to bash Jackconville from the inside while looking at other cities from the outside....

Perhaps if you all did some research, you would find that the people of Seattle debated rail transit for over two decades...and that's in an urban area that is pretty progressive and environmentally progressive.

So how does that fit with the view that Seattle has vision and we don't?

[thelakelander]

Hopefully, we can learn from Seattle's +two decade debate. 

We've been toying around off & on with the idea of rail transit since the early 1970s.  If we're lucky, the national political environment will finally be enough to motivate our city to turn debate and ideas into reality.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I dont think people really bash Jax. Most are just wanting and expecting more. When the city continues to make mistakes and I we all do, but its time for them to get it together. I am sure all cities have their issues, homeless, money issues, taxes, etc. I see nothing wrong with applauding another city efforts and fact that they did pulled it together shows their resolve in getting it done despite some conflicts. I dont know if Bash is the right word I think people from other cities tend to bash us if anything. I do believe most on here just want us to be headed in the right direction. Tufsu1, there are people who dont care about DT or their own nieghborhood, so I am glad to see positive and negatives views.

[stjr]

Marinating this creates an idea to increase the proposed Skyway extension to go all the way to the Publix in Riverside, build a station on top of the Publix building etc. That will make grocery shopping so much easier for a lot of people in Springfield, Downtown and San Marco. It will also increase shopper traffic between the Riverside Arts Market and Five Points.

Yep, extending the $ky-high-way would probably cure cancer based on the enthusiasm of its proponents.

How many people do you think would carry arm loads of heavy grocery bags to an elevated platform, cram into a "bus" ride for 15 to 25 minutes (with stops) across town with the bags smooshed in their lap, elbow their way out of the "bus", ride the escalator down, and walk several blocks or more to their homes?  And, by now, their ice cream is melted, the frozen food is half thawed, the condensation in the heat has soaked through the paper bags, and the rider is exhausted.

RAM is open on Saturdays for about 6 or 7 hours.  Despite its success to date and its connection to the riverwalk, so few people care to ride the $ky-high-way to access the riverwalk a block or two from some of its stations, that JTA just eliminated Saturday service.  Not a good sign that RAM will make a difference.

Please jump over to our thread on a "Riverside Extension" where you can enjoy, once again, a rehash of the debate over the $ky-high-way rather than compel us to start again here  ! 

See: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5549.0.html 

[tufsu1]

huh...please explain how the current skyway gpes anywhere near the RAM?

[thelakelander]

I'm still trying to figure that one out.  RAM should have zero impact on skyway operations.

[stjr]

huh...please explain how the current skyway gpes anywhere near the RAM?

It doesn't.  If you read my post again, you will see I said the RIVERWALK (that connects to RAM) is a block or two from some stations.  Details, details.

I'm still trying to figure that one out.  RAM should have zero impact on skyway operations.

My point exactly.  It doesn't and it probably never will .

[stephendare]

Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.  

Jacksonville
 - City    794,555 (13th)
 - Density    1,061.6/sq mi (409.89/km2)
 - Urban    913,125
 - Metro    1,313,228

Seattle
 - City    602,000 (US: 25th)
 - Density    7,179.4/sq mi (2,772/km2)
 - Urban    2,712,205
 - Metro    3,344,813 (US: 15th)

here are the actual numbers.  The main difference between the two areas is that there are no vast tracts of land that are completely undeveloped in seattle the way there is in jacksonville.

The actual population of Seattle is significantly less than Jacksonville's.

Also their 'metropolitan area' includes the entire cities of Tacoma and Bellevue.  This would be like claiming Orlando and Daytona as part of the Jacksonville Metropolitan area.   While the cities are closer together, trust me they are quite separate.

Seattle, unlike Jacksonville doesnt have the largest park system in America, nor does it have the wetlands and lake areas that Jacksonville has.

Having actually lived there, Seattle itself is not significantly different from Jacksonvilles populated developed areas.

Areas like Fremont, Wallingford, Queen Anne and Capitol Hill are very like the areas of San Marco, Riverside, Tinseltown, and Avondale.  Without the architectural character that Jacksonville has

Its nothing like San Francisco or Atlanta or Miami or any other extremely urbanized city.

However it is awesome

[heights unknown]

(Sigh)...if only this were Jacksonville celebrating the opening of light rail.  From looking at the map, we could do the same...that is, from the Southern portion of Duval County (or even a metro light rail starting in St. Johns County) and ending either at the Airport or Fernandina in Nassau County.  Maybe one day.

Heights Unknown

[thelakelander]

The numbers prove my original point.  Seattle is a much larger and denser urban area.  

Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.  

Jacksonville
 - City    794,555 (13th)
 - Density    1,061.6/sq mi (409.89/km2)
 - Urban    913,125
 - Metro    1,313,228

Seattle
 - City    602,000 (US: 25th)
 - Density    7,179.4/sq mi (2,772/km2)
 - Urban    2,712,205
 - Metro    3,344,813 (US: 15th)

here are the actual numbers.  The main difference between the two areas is that there are no vast tracts of land that are completely undeveloped in seattle the way there is in jacksonville.

Here are two more important numbers:

Seattle urban area density: 2,844.1
Jacksonville urban area density: 2,149.2

The main difference is that Jax is consolidated with Duval County and Seattle is not, with King County.  Nevertheless, the numbers above still demonstrate that Seattle is a larger and denser urban area.  Imaginary municipal limit boundaries don't amount to much in this case because Jax is consolidated with a significant portion of its suburbs (Mandarin, Argyle, Oceanway, etc.) and Seattle is not.

The actual population of Seattle is significantly less than Jacksonville's.

We all know true development is rarely contained to imaginary municipal boundaries, thus urban area statistics are more accurate to compare because the data used to compile them is the same for each city.

City limit wise, Jax has the benefit of being consolidated with Duval, thus covering over 767 miles of land area, with a population of 807,815.  On the other hand, Seattle manages to pack in 602,000 people in 142 miles of land area.  King County has nearly 2 million residents.  If Seattle's unconsolidated municipal borders were extended to cover the same land area as Jax's consolidated, it would be much larger and denser.  When you look at urban area numbers (apples to apples), it is.

Also their 'metropolitan area' includes the entire cities of Tacoma and Bellevue.  This would be like claiming Orlando and Daytona as part of the Jacksonville Metropolitan area.   While the cities are closer together, trust me they are quite separate.

Seattle to Bellevue = 13 miles
Seattle to Tacoma = 37 miles

Jacksonville to Orange Park = 15 miles
Jacksonville to Fernandina Beach = 34 miles
Jacksonville to St. Augustine = 40 miles

Tacoma & Bellevue are to Seattle what Orange Park, Fernandina Beach and St. Augustine are to Jacksonville.  Suburbs and cities in the same metropolitan area connected to the core city (ex.  by sprawl, developed area, commute percentages, media markets, etc.)

Seattle, unlike Jacksonville doesnt have the largest park system in America, nor does it have the wetlands and lake areas that Jacksonville has.

767 miles of land area vs 142 miles of land area, when comparing municipal numbers (consolidated vs non-consolidated = apples vs oranges).  How does Seattle's urban area numbers compare to Jacksonville's (apples to apples)?

Having actually lived there, Seattle itself is not significantly different from Jacksonvilles populated developed areas.

They are just denser overall.  No matter how the numbers are displayed, its a more urban community.  Nevertheless, regardless of what Seattle may be, we do ourselves an injustice by making excuses to why we can't do better.  This, I think we both can agree on.

Definitely denser and more urban

[stephendare]

As you point out in your post, the actual urban density numbers are just slightly higher than Jacksonville's, which is what I pointed out originally.

Again, you really have to live there to know what its like.  Seattle actually has very few of the main roads that characterize Jacksonville, and its pretty much contained in a bowl, as its surrounded by mountains and hills.  They are geographical limits more than imaginary city limits.  On the west, Seattle is defined by the Sound, and on the North and East, mountains.   

Those tall buildings that you see in this photo are the sum total of the tall and medium sized buildings., which with the addition of the buildings on the Southbank of our river, plus Riverside Avenue, and Southpoint, Im pretty sure would present a similar inventory.

The similarity between the surrounding towns of Jacksonville and those surrounding Seattle is pretty much non existent.  In Jacksonville if you drive to the nearest towns Orange Park or Saint Augustine, you would drive pretty much the same distances as if you drove to those surrounding Seattle.  The difference is that those towns would be real live cities.

Seattle is way less spread out than Jacksonville, and I would hazard an intuition that if you took the truly rural people out of the Jacksonville City population you would probably end up with the same 600 thousand city dwellers that Seattle has.

Seattle looms large because of the way it has assumed such importance in our American Culture.

Even if you go to their wiki page, in the first paragraphs their musicians and artists are prominently mentioned.

Seattle celebrates its culture and heritage, and as a result, it is celebrated by the rest of us.

It makes it seem larger and more titanic than Jacksonville, but it really is a small city.   Just a well run and enjoyable one.

[tufsu1]

As you point out in your post, the actual urban density numbers are just slightly higher than Jacksonville's, which is what I pointed out originally.

Ennis pointed out Seattle at 2800+ persons per sq. mile and Jax at 2100+....that's 33% more....not what I call a slight difference....you said it yourself...."Seattle is way less spread out than Jacksonville."

As for the tall buildings, there is no way that comes close...even when including Southbank and Riverside/Brooklyn buildings.