Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[CS Foltz]

I agree Ock! If Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Disney just spent something like 2.5 Billion to acquire the Marvel Empire so they are not broke by any means. Tax dollars to supply Mouseville with a people mover system is just flat wrong and the rest of the state will suffer for sure!

[FayeforCure]

I personally am trying to ascertain if you care about these issues, or if you are simply backing what has lots of popularity down there.

Well, I happen to care about these issues. Given my own background it's easy to acertain authenticity. Heck I have a sister living in Europe ( in her forties) who has NEVER yet owned a car.

My personal experience says enough. I'm not beholden to special interests, and have been a citizen advocate on healthcare long enough to have made my marks for the people's interests.

Now if you are looking for someone who is a corporatist, which you can find in both parties, you are not going to find that in me. That doesn't mean I am against corporations,.........my dad worked for Philips Electronics all of his life, and they paid for my master's degree through their scholarship program. I too have worked for major corporations myself: Nestle, Kaiser Parmanente and Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

I have had the fortune to live in the far east and the middle east, as well as being born in Colombia, because my dad was stationed overseas while he worked for a multi-national company.

Though government can help facilitate things for corporations ( infrastructure is a prime example), it should also be there to protect the people from corporate excesses. It's the corporate excesses to caused our recent economic collapse.

Mostly I think government should put policies in place that help small businesses, as they supply 70% of our employment.

On HSR, I think downtown to downtown connections are preferable, that is how it's done in Europe, although there are train stations at every airport as well. Florida is different from other places in the US, because of its high tourist component.

Heck, we all know that our economy has been based on agriculture, tourism and construction. Not much diversification to speak of compared to others areas in the US.

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

The HSR I took in Europe as I visited my parents this past Jan. didn't stop at every little town along the way either. If I wanted that I could have taken the "stop" train.

The distance was the same as Tampa-Orlando,.........Amsterdam-Eindhoven, and they only had one stop at Utrecht.

Of coures you all have debated all these issues ad nauseum on these boards, and there is definitely a lot of expertise here, but I too can have serious opinions that may differ from some of the group think that can occur when people hang out a lot with each other. I always back up my stuff with sourcing as you know. I enjoy researching and learning.

The one congressman did not show up on the list backing HSR in Florida, that is a pure fact, indisputable.

So in this case I don't think there is a difficulty going through the evaluation as laid out by you:

With so much criticism of mica its more difficult, because I have to stop and decide whether your point is
a. Accurate
b. sourced,
c. a reflection of how you feel
d. just an attempt to raise the negatives on mica.

I am only testing the waters in terms of running again. Knowing that incumbents win 95% of the time, makes elections a real farce. The only way to level the playing field is for publicly financed campaigns.

It's no wonder nothing ever gets done, incumbents have no reason to to listen to the needs of the people. We will forever be stuck with career politicians unless we stop making excuses for them, and vote them out.

[tufsu1]

Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

[thelakelander]

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does.  I'm pushing the idea of a plan that can attract and cater to tourist and residents and which is significantly cheaper and easier to establish.

I don't know when the last time you've visited these towns between Orlando and Tampa lately, but they aren't small little burgs anymore.  Lakeland's downtown is more vibrant than Jacksonville's and traffic on South and North Florida Avenue will remind you of Blanding or Atlantic Blvds.  Brandon isn't incorporated, but if it were it's population would rival some of our region's counties.  Plant City may only have around 35,000 residents, but its boundaries touch Lakeland's, which has nearly 100,000 in city limits and a ton more in its suburbs.  The same goes for Winter Haven, Haines City, Kissimmee and a host of unincorporated areas.  These are population centers that add local trips to and help clog I-4, I-75, SR 60 and other highways.  Spending $2.5 billion on a rail system and ignoring them is simply silly.

This is why I suggested a system that allows for local and express train service on the same tracks.  You hit both markets and it can be a ton cheaper by working with Amtrak, as opposed to trying to do something off the wall on our on.  As for the notion of HSR, who cares.  This is a corridor that screams commuter rail, imo.  If it takes 30 minutes longer (end point to end point) to serve a larger population base on a corridor in the center of these cities, so what.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

I don't think so tusfu1, but FIRST, it wasn't I who said that, it was The Transport Politic, and was identified as such. As Lakelander has pointed out the true cost of this system would also have to include some of the right-of-way purchase, planning and construction on I-4. Plus this thing has been "next years news" since Florida Governor Bob Graham had his photo taken in the cab of a bullet train. With so many studies, FDOT, dedicated consultants, etc. it might be well over that mark, until then, I'll go with their figure.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Lakelander, with tilt train technology that 79 mph track could be much faster. Dedicate a portion of the funds to any tight spots where track realignment would be cheap and easy. Run high speed expresses as well as local Surfliner type commuter trains. That train would blow through every downtown from Jacksonville to St. Petersburg.

BTW, Faye, they are NOT planning electric (and may never build it) they are looking at Bombardier's 2002 trial of a GE Jet train. Is actually like a jet engine in that it is in the form of a gas turbine, however it is designed to provide horsepower in lieu of thrust. It's said to fairly quiet but not nice to the environment.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Gas Turbine is notorious for spent gases.........even if in a bypass mode as some aircraft engines are for noise suppression and additional thrust..........but you are aware of that are you not Ok? Don't care what they use, Mouseville can build their own rail system! We need a statewide rail system, just not a stand alone system that caters to 73 mile stretch.......along with a stop programed at Disney......forget Jacksonville!

[FayeforCure]

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does. 

Well, the current plan does not favor tourists:

In general, the high speed rail ridership split between business and recreational/tourist trips is about 50/50.

Per Nazih K. Haddad, P.E.

Manager, Passenger Rail Development

Florida Department of Transportation

[thelakelander]

I lived, worked and designed projects in various Central Florida cities for a combined 21 years.  I'm pretty familiar with the local commuting patterns and this system does not set up well to serve them.  You can't effectively serve a sprawling region with multiple cities (that contribute to I-4's congestion problems) with a line with five stations spaced out over a 90 mile stretch.  Charging $20-$30 for a one-way ticket only creates more skepticism.  There's not much a cut and pasted quote from Nazih Haddad is going to do to change my mind.

[Ocklawaha]

How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.

OCKLAWAHA

[buckethead]

How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.

OCKLAWAHA

And all this time I've been waitng for Mr Toad's Wild Ride to return to the Magic Kingdom.

Turns out I've just been waiting on the wrong ride.

[Ocklawaha]

It disappoints me at MJ to realize that Faye, a very likable, and educated, would-be public servant, can't see this for what it is. That someone with her influence can't think beyond the $2 Billion, and see how this plan could backfire so big as to be High Speed Rails equivalent of The Hindenburg.

Faye, I'm not saying don't support it at all, none of us are, in fact with few exceptions we all support the concept. The entire Northeast Corridor is built on the regular railroad mainlines, ours should be too.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

Lakelander and Ock, I have plenty of street cred on Central Florida myself.

Lived in Kissimmee for 6 years,............Poinciana, which covers Osceola and Polk counties. and is near Haines City.

I agree that we also need a commuter train to stop at all these towns.

I used to drive from Poinciana into Tampa every single day, and often had to drive into Orlando as well. I very much regretted having bought a house there, because of how far everything was from where we lived.
Now I live off SR 13/San Jose Blvd, and can walk and bike to wherever I need to go. That is how development should take place. Dense development that makes public transportation feasible. Go LRT for San Jose!!!!

( and LRT on John Young Parkway from Kissimmee to Orlando too )

The fact remains that we have a terrific HSR plan, that is ready to go. And I am happy Florida will be getting some of its tax payer transportation dollars back that have in the past gone to other states.

[CS Foltz]

Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

[FayeforCure]

Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

Well yeah, let's start from scratch with Jax as the focal point........when our city government has never expressed much interest. That sure make sense. I do however agree that jax is the gateway to Florida and should capitalize on it.

BTW thanks for calling Mica about voting YES on fully funding Amtrak, by signing onto Corrine Brown's Dear Colleague letter.

Let's see what he does.