Mayport Cruise Ship Terminal Proposal

[Ocklawaha]

The new terminal opens up a splended opportunity for BEACH-RAIL, streetcar. With venues on the South at Ponte Vedra-Sawgrass, attractions all along the Coast, Jax Beach-Atlantic Beach, and a cruise port on the north, this might be the most viable route in the county. Thought should be given by our port authority on future private right-of-way over the marsh, along the road to string the beach pearls together.

I can see it now....thousands of cruise passengers getting on transit with all their luggage...please, they barely use the streetcar in Tampa that stops right in front of the terminal!

Yes, I CAN see it. The problem with Tampa's Line is that it doesn't reach the people. How many hotels are there on the Tampa Line and how many are along our beaches? I think we win that one with ease. After that, it's just a matter of packaging the cruise with hotel accomodations at our beaches. Something that could be done by the CofC and visitors bureau's.

Once Tampa breaks down and gets that streetcar up to the Airport, it's going to light that city up like PORTLAND experienced. I'll wager the investment tops a BILLION DOLLARS within a year of opening. Much of the new investment in Tampa will be hotel room stock and restaurants.

While our beaches are not in the same league as cities as Tampa, they certainly have as much (I'd say a lot more) visitors appeal.

The only thing our combined Sawgrass to Mayport strip lacks is a "hook" on the fishing line. Streetcars to our beaches were proposed in the 1920's by commissioner, St. Elmo Acosta. After the car line's in downtown were eaten by General Motors, he then proposed a Trolley Bus on a BRT like express busway. Both times he was ignored. 3 times a charm?

I am in favor of the city furnishing trackless trolleys to the Beaches. The Brill Company of Philadelphia, PA. have a trackless trolley car costing $6,000 which can carry 30 passengers. It operates on rubber tires like busses, but from two overhead electric wires, allowing the car to turn around autos. The same as an auto would. It would use the beach roadway. We could purchase 10 of them for $60,000. The cost of the equipment, poles, wires, sub-stations, etc, would be $6,000 per mile.

This would build up the beaches, also all along the line stops could be made every half mile at rates so much per mile.

Too bad those who started Jacksonville did not appreciate the beaches as we do now and started Jacksonville at St. Johns Bluff like all other cities on the East and West Coast of Florida have been started, what is within a mile or two of the
ocean. Jacksonville will build with the proper transportation and cheap transportation towards the beaches and in the future and from the beaches back towards Jacksonville.

Jacksonville should at first session of legislature arrange to take over the 100' strip (beach railroad grade) from new limits in southside on beach road to beaches then from Mayport to St. Johns County line as part of Jacksonville. We should do this so that we could give the necessary improvements to the ocean part of Jacksonville, such as paving, beautification and planting trees, right kind of building regulations, do away with mosquito conditions in the marshes in back of the beach, cutting a canal from Florida East Coast Canal to within 5 blocks of the beaches so that excursion steamers could go down the St. Johns River and deliver our people there, thus giving them a plesant boat ride at a small expense also. We could then give the beaches lower electricity and power.

St. Elmo Acosta, from the Jacksonville American, Aug 1, 1931.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

wrong again....there are four Tampa hotels directly on the line....with almost 1500 rooms...and if you count hotels within 3 blocks of the streetcar line, the number jumps to 8 hotels with close to 2500 rooms....can we match that?

Also....the streetcar will never be extended to the airport in Tampa....streetcars serve a local area....say up to 5 miles long

Tampa's airport will either be served by the second phase of their light rail plan (of course Phase 1 has to get approved first)....or commuter rail through TBARTA, or maybe someday high speed rail.

[Ocklawaha]

wrong again....there are four Tampa hotels directly on the line....with almost 1500 rooms...and if you count hotels within 3 blocks of the streetcar line, the number jumps to 8 hotels with close to 2500 rooms....can we match that?

Also....the streetcar will never be extended to the airport in Tampa....streetcars serve a local area....say up to 5 miles long

Tampa's airport will either be served by the second phase of their light rail plan (of course Phase 1 has to get approved first)....or commuter rail through TBARTA, or maybe someday high speed rail.

Looks like you slipped on your own venom this time. How many of those hotels were in place BEFORE the TECO streetcar line in Tampa? How many more are planned as a result of the new TECO extension? How much is coming to Tampa because of TECO?

ANOTHER $800 Million to $1 Billion dollars!

Please tell me about streetcars and how they can only serve local area's, I'd really like to hear your information. What would prevent a TECO streetcar from going to the Airport?

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I didn't slip at all Ock....you said we had more hotels/rooms on the beach than Tampa, and I proved you wrong....but just so you know, only 2 of the Tampa hotels have been built since the streetcar line opened....and they account for less than 500 rooms.

I totally AGREE that streetcars often spur development around it....but its still not a viable transport mode for diatnaces that are longer than about 5 miles....combined with the luggage issues, it seems to me that a streetcar line from hotels in Ponte vedra and Jax Beach to Mayport to primarily serve cruise passengers would not work.

It makes much more sense to work with the hotels to provide shuttle service (as is done in Tampa)....especially if ships will only be in port 1-2 days a week!

[Ocklawaha]

I didn't slip at all Ock....you said we had more hotels/rooms on the beach than Tampa, and I proved you wrong....but just so you know, only 2 of the Tampa hotels have been built since the streetcar line opened....and they account for less than 500 rooms.

I totally AGREE that streetcars often spur development around it....but its still not a viable transport mode for diatnaces that are longer than about 5 miles....combined with the luggage issues, it seems to me that a streetcar line from hotels in Ponte vedra and Jax Beach to Mayport to primarily serve cruise passengers would not work.

It makes much more sense to work with the hotels to provide shuttle service (as is done in Tampa)....especially if ships will only be in port 1-2 days a week!

My mistake. I counted over 1,000 rooms at Jacksonville Beach but could find nothing with a complete room count. We seem to have more hotels overall but fewer rooms. This begs a completely new question... WHY? What screw up have our Beaches done to knock them so far out of the hotel competition as a Florida resort area. Veru interestomg that we are about 1/3 short of the hotel rooms along TECO and that TECO has so far accounted for about 1/3 of the hotel rooms along that strip in Tampa.

Streetcars are larger, faster and quieter then most buses, and I have ridden on several systems where there are luggage and bike racks in one end of the cars. Certainly something like this could be done if we had a beachfront car line.

I still think the novelty of riding the cars to the ship along with the many cruise packages which will come BEACH SIDE with a Port location change, would be great.  With little effort our beaches would finally start looking more like some of the resorts to the North or South. It is going to happen even withourt a streetcar line, but as far as density, corridor, purpose, venues etc... I can think of dozens of reasons we should secure right-of-way for future transit to the Mayport Terminal.

As far as being a short haul vehicle, this doesn't have to be the case. With the systems that survived the streetcar wipeout of the 1930's-80's, often offer many more miles and routes. Also keep in mind that a streetcar is simply a slightly smaller version of LRT. Those lines are getting more blured by the day, and perahps it's time to take the whole industry up a notch with these LONG NARROW cities spread along our coast. Just as I would say Jacksonville Beaches are a natural for streetcar, I'd also give the same consideration to Daytona Beaches, Cocoa, etc... Though I would HOPE that we are finally first in something besides another failure.

Good discussion, I like this.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

The main reason Tampa has more rooms is the convention center....the Marriott Waterside has 750+ rooms and the new Embassy Suites has about 350....both across the street from the center and the TECO streetcar line.

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah guess my Florida is changing pretty fast, Tampa is a long, long, way from Bogota!

FYI, the 501 Queen Streetcar line of Toronto is a bit over 15 miles long, imagine this stretched along one of Florida's long-narrow beach city clusters. Paradise lost?

OCKLAWAHA

[ProjectMaximus]

aww man. I was just gettin my popcorn ready for the big fight!!

Looks like you guys worked things out. Hugs all around. I love the streetcar idea, too. Just doesn't seem feasible in the near future. Certainly not until there is more to serve than just the cruise ship passenger demographic. But way to always think big, Ock, and keep reminding us of what the ultimate aspirations should be, and what we've had in the past. 

[blizz01]

Why did Celebrity pull out?

[Ocklawaha]

Thank's for the good words here, I think we are all on the same page as far as pushing our city as far as it can go.

Beaches streetcar could even go with the new technology called ULTRA-LIGHT RAIL, a rail system to be sure but much lower in overall costs. BTW, O&M on electrics is cheaper then for diesel, bus or rail.


NEW ULRT vehicle roll out.

If ULRT or Streetcar were installed, I think you'd get the following:

Families out for a day trip to the Mayport Seafood places
Coast Guardsmen
Rail Buffs
History Buffs
Fishermen
Port Employees
Cruise Passengers
Navy personel
Family Excursions
Shoppers
Trolley-Ferry Packages... (and what if the ULRT crossed the ferry? It's easy with rail...Hugenot Park anyone?)

Remember that as these Terminals are developed, Mayport is going to become more and more of an attraction  for everyone.

As for the longer stretch it goes something like.

Mayport - attractor
Mayport NS - producer
Atlantic Beach - residential
Downtown Atlantic Beach/Neptune Beach - attractor
North hotel Strip - residential
North businesses - attractors
Jacksonville Beach - residential
Jacksonville Beach - attractor
Sea Walk - attractor
Historical Museum - attractor
South beach Strip - residential
JTB area Shoping - attractor
Ponte Vedra - residential
Ponte Vedra - attractor
Sawgrass - attractor + residential

Anyone remember the JTA PCT Trolley experiment this past summer? It blew away the projections and stayed so busy that the beaches are considering going year-round? But it's been proven that the PCT Trolleys do not attract choice riders (riders that would otherwise drive), but rail does. Do the math JAX BEACHES.

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

I think the lot across the street is for vehicles that won't fit in the garage - RVs and the like.

[thelakelander]

Council ready to vote on Mayport cruise terminal
But the Port Authority hasn't finished research or made final decision.

The Jacksonville City Council is expected to pave the way Tuesday for a cruise ship terminal to be built in Mayport.


Opponents of the plan say they were taken by surprise by the council's decision to move forward on a vote. They were hoping that wouldn't happen until the Jacksonville Port Authority finished researching the project's financial feasibility and made a final decision.


Council President Ronnie Fussell decided in early January to postpone voting on the three bills associated with the cruise terminal proposal to give the Port Authority time to weigh in. He told the council's Land Use and Zoning Committee not to vote on the zoning bill.


The JPA board met Jan. 26 and decided to look for a firm to design and build the terminal. However, the board members reserved the right to scrap the project if it cost too much or if they changed their minds.


Fussell said the JPA and Councilman Ray Holt, whose district includes Mayport, indicated they no longer saw need for the council to delay a decision. He and Art Graham, chairman of the Land Use and Zoning Committee, decided the committee would vote.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-09/story/council_ready_to_vote_on_mayport_cruise_terminal

[Jason]

My guess is that it will pass.

[GatorShane]

Lets get this done. The river and all the opportunities that it has to offer( The Navy, the Port, and yes Cruise ships) will be a major economic engine for this region for years to come.

[billy]

Is there an advertised Request For Proposals at this point?