Author Topic: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?  (Read 4120 times)

RatTownRyan

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 10:05:22 AM »
It seems that many of the buildings on Main Street between 7th and 8th are now occupied. Do you think that we are getting to a point that new building construction can start? The ideal place in my eyes is the corners of 7th. If those empty lots were filled we could start to see some real progress out from what 8th has started. People would feel better about walking in between the two breweries. Hopefully those lots arent going for 1.2 million or something.

Tacachale

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 10:37:58 AM »
^There's already a market for new single-family homes in Springfield, and probably even lowrise multifamily. Perhaps even (gasp) townhomes!
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thelakelander

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 11:00:40 AM »
Springfield's residential market has been booming for quite some time.  Now, we're finally seeing some commercial activity take place on Main Street. There's still a lot of existing spaces that are underutilized, so I would not expect to see a massive boom of new construction infill mixed-use along Main. Nevertheless, people will feel just fine walking to the cluster of places opening between 6th and 9th now....even with the 7th and Main corner lots being vacant.  Just having open storefronts clustered together in close proximity will be a game changer for Main Street. That ball of momentum will lead to more vacant buildings being retrofitted and eventual infill.
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remc86007

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 11:20:31 AM »
In reference to the ridiculous land prices: People are likely holding these properties as investments and taking deductions along the way. The good news is that that means that investors think the appreciation in value of the property they are holding is going to outperform market returns, but the bad news is we get to live with a bunch of vacant property. I imagine there are things the city could do to create some movement on these properties, but I doubt much of that will happen soon. If incentives are going to be used, I'd prefer that we fill the currently abandoned and asbestos ridden properties in the core first before we start messing with vacant land. How many buildings downtown does the city own that are vacant?

Sorry to further derail this thread...but BT Park isn't as interesting as the core.

fieldafm

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 12:55:32 PM »
If the numbers don't work is it the cost of the real estate or construction that are prohibitive?  I look at vacant parcels and my opinion is that most are way too expensive. And so they sit on the market for years................

PETRA has several large parcels for sale on Main Street in Springfield and are asking a million dollars (or more) for them. SERIOUSLY?

(1100 N Main asking $1,200,000     1400 N main asking $1,400,000    1148 N main 1 acre price not disclosed. SOURCE: LOOPNET)

There are NO COMPS to support those prices. I assume they think it's useful to decorate the vacant lot/building with a sign just so you know who owns it!?!

For comparison a one acre parcel on Ernest Street a block from Bold Bean just sold for low $300,000's.  In a red hot neighborhood.

I feel the same way about most of the parcels downtown.

Asking $1,500,000 for a 1 acre parking lot on Pearl and Ashley? (Colliers International).

The old Ambassador Hotel currently listed for $5,500,000 as a redevelopment opportunity?  Get real folks.

Lake, can you post the most recent vacant large parcel that sold Downtown? i can't find anything to support these numbers.


Singling out Petra tends to muddy up that question.

In general from my seat, construction costs and a stricter environment for financing such projects, are driving feasibility (or in Jacksonville's case, unfeasibility) of multifamily construction. 

Labor costs are a very real problem. Given the wages being paid to skilled and even semi-skilled workers, it's very surprising to me that much of the labor force that exited the industry during the recession has not returned. I appreciate that working conditions are not ideal. But what unskilled workers building apartments (who aren't exactly choosing between the trades and say a job on Wall Street) are getting paid right now, I have to imagine the wage gap between that and the unskilled XYZ job in the a/c is quite wide right now... and wide enough where working in the elements and staying in hotels during the length of a project would entice more entrants into that labor pool.


Most of the proformas I see for urban apartment construction in Jax are well North of $2.15 sq/ft.  200 Riverside, the mixed use building that will hopefully break ground soon next to 220 Riverside in Brooklyn, had to add a number of floors to the building in order to make the numbers work. For perspective, land acquisition costs on that project were sunk more then 10 years ago.

The appetite for these kinds of projects within the investment community/capital markets has also changed. Whereas 3-4 years ago, equity partners may have been interested in your 2 for $7 hamburger combo... they are now more likely interested in that $15 kale salad.


Singling Petra out doesn't really speak to the issues mentioned above. Appreciate that Petra quite often prices their holdings well above market (that's not an uncommon practice in the CRE world, everything is a negotiation). Would you pay $120/sq ft for land on roughly an acre in Springfield to build an apartment complex that's going to require a complete teardown and site remediation? I couldn't see where that would be viable given overall market conditions and lot size (IE- would need a parking structure and probably seven floors of net leasable space at a high price point).  But, would it be reasonable to spend maybe upwards of $140/sq ft for an urban commercial property that didn't need a new roof nor had environmental issues?  You could probably work in that price point and lease the building out (instead of tearing down the structure and building new on top).  I've seen some CRO properties in Riverside sell for around $125/ft within the past year, so I could see a CCG-1 type property hold a premium of around $140/ft depending largely on the condition of the building (given that, some of the buildings you singled out have issues).  Would I pay between $150/ft-$175/ft like some properties that are listed for sale in Riverside/Five Points right now? No, probably not.  But that's a hyper specific question that does not speak to why there have not been more residential units added in the Northbank.

MusicMan

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2017, 02:28:34 PM »
PETRA owns half of Main Street. Wonder what they paid for all that?  If you look there are some interesting properties, though.

It's not all crazy.  300 West Adams at $3,250,000 seems reasonable. Finished building (34,000 sf) with long term tenants in place (77% occ)  flexible interior.  Good location. (NAI Hallmark Partners)

My beef is there are no comps to support the PETRA asking prices.  So price it to sell and move the product.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 02:31:09 PM by MusicMan »

fieldafm

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 02:38:48 PM »
Quote
My beef is there are no comps to support the PETRA asking prices.  So price it to sell and move the product.

How does that commercial go 'I like properties to sell, not sit'  ;D

I have personally found Petra reasonable to work with, and they have helped several of my market vendors into permanent homes.

My point is that I am of the strong belief that Petra's asking prices on a few properties along Main Street and in downtown are not what's holding back market-rate residential construction on the Northbank... which was the basis of your original question. If not, then I apologize for the confusion. 

MusicMan

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2017, 03:45:09 PM »
 8)

PETRA has been responsive to me as well. But I have not closed anything with them.  But I have tried. Small stuff.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 03:46:44 PM by MusicMan »

Bill Hoff

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2017, 05:25:59 PM »
Visited Bartram Park's pearly gates today, by necessity.

My assessment: still a hellish, beige, suburban wasteland.

 

I-10east

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »
Here's my take. I'm beyond the suburbs vs urbanity crap, so I'm not gonna go there. As long as there is a market for a suburban community like Bartram Park, and it's not the next thing to The Compound in Palm Bay, FL I'm cool with it. Good schools are a problem for families in metros all over the country, and places like Bartram Park provide that.

One of the most overrated costs that people say with something like this is "these new roads costs taxpayers 90 million dollars each year just to maintain" yeah, not really, that's hyperbole...I'm down with successful urban projects, and also successful suburban ones (caring more about actual occupancy, and less about classic aesthetics concerning the new suburban places). 

Bill Hoff

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2017, 04:13:42 PM »
That's a hot take.

#hottake

urbanlibertarian

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2017, 11:54:03 AM »
A K-8 charter school in the Cathedral district or Lavilla would be appealing to young families inclined to live downtown.  It would also appeal to many downtown workers.
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I-10east

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2017, 09:58:53 PM »
^^^True that.

RattlerGator

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Re: Bartram Park: A suburban millennial paradise?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2017, 05:57:24 PM »
Here's my take. I'm beyond the suburbs vs urbanity crap, so I'm not gonna go there. As long as there is a market for a suburban community like Bartram Park, and it's not the next thing to The Compound in Palm Bay, FL I'm cool with it. Good schools are a problem for families in metros all over the country, and places like Bartram Park provide that.

One of the most overrated costs that people say with something like this is "these new roads costs taxpayers 90 million dollars each year just to maintain" yeah, not really, that's hyperbole...I'm down with successful urban projects, and also successful suburban ones (caring more about actual occupancy, and less about classic aesthetics concerning the new suburban places).

Truth.

Disrespecting what purchasers want, prefer and are willing to buy has never been a winning formula.