Author Topic: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials  (Read 9092 times)

FlaBoy

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 04:03:17 PM »
I have never been to Germany but assume there are few if any statues commemorating Hitler and the Third Reich, even though they are an important part of their past.  Does any one know?

The US tore them all down in West Germany. I am sure they had a worse fate in East Germany with the Soviets.

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 04:10:53 PM »
I have never been to Germany but assume there are few if any statues commemorating Hitler and the Third Reich, even though they are an important part of their past.  Does any one know?

The US tore them all down in West Germany. I am sure they had a worse fate in East Germany with the Soviets.

It's also illegal to use or even own Nazi symbols. There are no statues of Nazis or anything, but some things the Nazis built are there. There are also a lot of historical markers and such describing significant events and the victims of the regime.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

DeathByPensions

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 06:02:00 PM »
The practical answer is you take them down and put them in a museum for a couple of reasons:
1) black tax payers shouldn't have pay for the maintenance of these statues
2) people are going to try to tear them down anyway, probably hurt themselves and sue the city
3) they should be preserved for historical purposes

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that some of the statues bear messages like "our heroes" in the first place, but I don't think you can or should try to put the genie of history back in the bottle. All of these things are complex. If it was as simple as saying the Civil War was 100% about racism, or Thomas Jefferson should be defined by the worst thing he ever did, then it would be easy. Using that logic, most of our parents were probably anti gay, and most of our grandparents were probably racist, and should be decisively cut from the family tree. We can and should use these pieces of our history as discussion points around where this country has been and the lessons learned from it rather than (as the media fools people into) an instrument to tear people further apart by artificially baiting people into lining up behind one extreme or the other.

It's interesting that if you look at the people lined up to turn themselves in for vandalizing confederate monuments today in Durham, it is mostly white college kids https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/6uaf14/line_of_people_in_durham_waiting_to_turn/. This to me is part of the problem, not the solution.

spuwho

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2017, 07:08:31 PM »
I have never been to Germany but assume there are few if any statues commemorating Hitler and the Third Reich, even though they are an important part of their past.  Does any one know?

There are no memorials to Hitler or the Nazis but there are memorials to the German soldiers who fought and died in WW2 and WW1.

Not all Germans were Nazis.

A good friend of mine fought in the Vehrmacht and told me of the many times he sat in beer halls where him and his friends would be accosted by Nazi recruiters trying to get them to join the party.  They always retorted that they were "loyal Germans" and didnt need to support the party to support the country. (He was later captured by the Soviets and escaped)

When I was in South Africa, there was a monument to the Italian soldiers who died in WW2 fighting the South Africans in Somalia. Many of them were imprisoned in SA for the duration.

There is a marker in a small town in Iowa (name escapes me) that was put up by the German soldiers who were imprisioned there. They so appreciated how well they were treated, they came back after the war to show thier appreciation.

Jim

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 12:13:54 PM »
I have never been to Germany but assume there are few if any statues commemorating Hitler and the Third Reich, even though they are an important part of their past.  Does any one know?
No.  They don't.  They keep that past in books and museums.  Even Hitlers last stand is now a parking lot with not even a plague.  The arm gate at the entrance to the parking lot is directly over the bunker he died in.

lowlyplanner

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 02:38:15 PM »
This article sort of caught me - I hadn't considered this aspect of the monument business before (Big Monument):

https://hyperallergic.com/384776/the-norths-role-in-supplying-the-south-with-confederate-monuments/

It talks about how many of these monuments were mass produced, in the North, out of cheap materials.  They were assembled from a list of options and soldered together, then covered with a sealer to cover the joints and give them an instant patina.

The image from the Monumental Bronze Company catalog looks very similar to the Hemming memorial...



I haven't had time to do the research yet, but I assume that there's a complete catalog of pre-fab monuments out there.

Would it make any difference to this debate if the monument turned out to be a copy that existed in many other towns across the country?  Is artistic significance an issue?

Jim

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 02:45:13 PM »
This article sort of caught me - I hadn't considered this aspect of the monument business before (Big Monument):

https://hyperallergic.com/384776/the-norths-role-in-supplying-the-south-with-confederate-monuments/

It talks about how many of these monuments were mass produced, in the North, out of cheap materials.  They were assembled from a list of options and soldered together, then covered with a sealer to cover the joints and give them an instant patina.

The image from the Monumental Bronze Company catalog looks very similar to the Hemming memorial...



I haven't had time to do the research yet, but I assume that there's a complete catalog of pre-fab monuments out there.

Would it make any difference to this debate if the monument turned out to be a copy that existed in many other towns across the country?  Is artistic significance an issue?
Probably little difference.  The great sculpture artists of the past used to do something similar.  They'd create a miniature in wax or clay and then a whole team of their students or assistants would chisel out the real thing with the master only adding a few fine touches at the end.  It's not physically possible for a single artist to have carved all of their commissions personally as it would take several lifetimes.

But I do see a certain irony and parallelism is the south's monuments to themselves being made in the north much like a lot of make America great again clothing and items are made in China.

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 04:57:07 PM »
^I don't think it makes much difference. For the ones depicting generic soldiers, there are only so many ways to do that regardless of how it's made. In Jax, it's really only the Union Monument and the Hemming Park monument that would have been made that way.

Talking about aesthetics, it's really the column, not the soldier, that makes the Hemming Park monument so striking. The most aesthetically beautiful of our monuments is the Tribute to the Women of the Southern Confederacy in Confederate Park, which isn't a generic form, except maybe the statue inside the pavilion.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 04:59:17 PM »

The image from the Monumental Bronze Company catalog looks very similar to the Hemming memorial...




It actually looks pretty much exactly like the Union monument.

Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

lowlyplanner

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 08:12:10 PM »
I was in the neighborhood yesterday and drove through Evergreen Cemetery to see the Union memorial, but I couldn't find it.  Is there a map to it?

I would love to see the Union Memorial get some more attention.

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2017, 11:47:29 AM »
I was in the neighborhood yesterday and drove through Evergreen Cemetery to see the Union memorial, but I couldn't find it.  Is there a map to it?

I would love to see the Union Memorial get some more attention.

I'm on mobile so I can't get the direct link easily right now, but there's a link to an interactive Google map with the direct location of the Union monument. The link under the picture of the monument seems to go to the wrong place; we'll try to get that fixed soon.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

urbanlibertarian

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2017, 12:31:52 PM »
Great article!  There's more complexity to this subject than most care to see.  Moving the Hemming Park statue to a cemetery sounds like an excellent solution.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes (Who watches the watchmen?)

lastdaysoffla

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2017, 02:27:54 PM »
I find it strikingly ironic that the statue on the Union memorial is so similar to the statue atop the pillar in Hemming Plaza Park.

The City could switch them out in the dead of night and barely a person would notice, I think.

thelakelander

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2017, 04:09:57 PM »
I was in the neighborhood yesterday and drove through Evergreen Cemetery to see the Union memorial, but I couldn't find it.  Is there a map to it?

I would love to see the Union Memorial get some more attention.

It's at the corner of Cummer and Mills Drives: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3685172,-81.643251,3a,75y,195.08h,76.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swOLyYxe17QAChC-OFa9_LA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Jim

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Re: Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2017, 09:05:52 AM »
I just wonder how many people defending the "heritage" of these monuments have actually visited them or even were aware of their existence.