Author Topic: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back  (Read 26289 times)

Adam White

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #255 on: August 18, 2017, 11:02:33 AM »
So you've only ever been a visitor/tourist here, not a resident.  Got it.  I'll take your characterizations of desirable neighborhoods to heart with regards to London.  On NYC, I assign very little value to what you're saying. 

Yes, I've lived in Manhattan for 13 years, but have plenty of family in the South and visit several times each year to look after parents and grandparents.  I also lived in Jax for a period of time as a child.  Your sister lived in NYC for 30 years, so it would appear you're significantly older than I am which may partially account for our divergent views.

I know what the Landing is.  But I've also read on these threads that the City may be eyeing the courthouse property for a convention center, which is awfully close to the Landing.  Curry also has a sense of urgency to control the Landing.  My original posting questioned the vision for downtown.  An investment in the Landing as a shopping center at this point makes little sense given the lack of demand. 

Perhaps a convention center would spur some demand.  OK, so is that the vision?

On the other hand, a density of residents nearby might spur demand, but in a place like Jax, I'm not convinced high-rise residential off-the-waterfront really makes much sense. 

Perhaps you convert the Landing into waterfront mixed-use high-rises which incorporate residential, but if the city moves forward with a convention center where the old courthouse is located, I don't think that bodes well long-term for those residences.

Of course, the city could force almost anything to get built with enough tax breaks and grants.  But the city and its marketplace distortions in the name of these ill-conceived notions of what makes for a great downtown are diverting attention from the basics of government service. 

 

Ooh...13 years! A "real" New Yorker after all!

I don't see how age would dictate a difference in view on geography. Perhaps if I continued to refer to the East Village as the Lower East Side (for example), that would indicate I have a perspective that is rooted in an older version of the City (as neighbourhoods are renamed and boundaries change over time).

But there is simply no question that the Javits center is either in Hell's Kitchen or Chelsea. And there's no question that property there costs more than it does in, say, Staten Island. And whether or not you can know what all 'real' New Yorkers want in a property, there is no question that the existence of the Javits Center doesn't seem to have a negative impact on property values. And aren't they redeveloping the Hudson Yards? Isn't that meant to be a mixed-use development with what will probably be very expensive flats?

In any event - Jax can do what it wants. I'd personally rather see them make the Landing work than leave it as is. But hey - those are just my 'druthers'.

And I don't think that people wanting to redevelop the Landing means that Jax is trying to be NYC.

Edit: I don't doubt that I am probably a number of years older than you. But I did my math wrong - I think my sister lived in NYC for closer to 25 years.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:04:54 AM by Adam White »
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RattlerGator

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #256 on: August 18, 2017, 12:09:25 PM »

You don't happen to have a brother named Simms, do you?

Ha !!! You made my day with that one!

Adam White

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #257 on: August 18, 2017, 01:56:49 PM »

You don't happen to have a brother named Simms, do you?

Ha !!! You made my day with that one!

We're all just a $70 haircut away from being Simms.
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jaxnyc79

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #258 on: August 18, 2017, 02:06:30 PM »
You can cling to your Wikipedia all you want because it's as close as you'll get to living here, but it isn't Chelsea nor is it Hell's Kitchen.  It doesn't belong to a neighborhood.  It's a sprawling commercial complex on the Far West Side.  Staten Island isn't even part of the benchmark for judging the relative desirability of Manhattan neighborhoods.  Sure the area around Javits is more valuable than real estate on Staten Island, just as it's more valuable than real estate in Arlington.   

The point is that a convention complex is likely a major drag on the optimal level of residential desirability of its immediate surroundings.  Manhattan is a different animal (surely you can understand that), in that it is so compelling a place to live, that a range of other factors override the "convention center" drag.  Jax's attempts at inner city residential revitalization are far more uncertain and tenuous.  The city would have to accept that a large convention complex would likely scuttle attempts at residential vibrancy and rebirth for a decent-sized area around the complex.


Adam White

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #259 on: August 18, 2017, 02:15:08 PM »
You can cling to your Wikipedia all you want because it's as close as you'll get to living here, but it isn't Chelsea nor is it Hell's Kitchen.  It doesn't belong to a neighborhood.  It's a sprawling commercial complex on the Far West Side.  Staten Island isn't even part of the benchmark for judging the relative desirability of Manhattan neighborhoods.  Sure the area around Javits is more valuable than real estate on Staten Island, just as it's more valuable than real estate in Arlington.   

The point is that a convention complex is likely a major drag on the optimal level of residential desirability of its immediate surroundings.  Manhattan is a different animal (surely you can understand that), in that it is so compelling a place to live, that a range of other factors override the "convention center" drag.  Jax's attempts at inner city residential revitalization are far more uncertain and tenuous.  The city would have to accept that a large convention complex would likely scuttle attempts at residential vibrancy and rebirth for a decent-sized area around the complex.

Wikipedia didn't even exist the first time i visited Hell's Kitchen (or the Javits Center, for the matter). But I guess I'll just defer to the authentic New Yorker (who didn't even know how to spell the name of the Javits Center in the first place).

That said - you should maybe look into getting work as a medium or psychic or whatever. Your ability to read and understand the minds of New Yorkers is truly impressive.

As far as Jax goes, there are so few things downtown (including residences) that the convention centre wouldn't be anything but a positive. Same with the Landing.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 04:32:23 PM by Adam White »
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JBTripper

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #260 on: August 18, 2017, 02:17:28 PM »
Google find me metronewyork-dot-com and metrolondon-dot-com!

Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #261 on: August 18, 2017, 05:51:33 PM »
Sorry, I'm not able to follow this argument. Jaxnyc79, are you saying that no one wants to live near convention centers, so Jacksonville shouldn't build one?

If that's your argument, well, there are other reasons for building convention centers, in our case the leading reason being that the current one is inadequate.

I don't think Jax is trying to be New York, and it's true that New York is a different animal than most cities, so I'm not sure why it's even part of this discussion.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

jaxnyc79

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #262 on: August 18, 2017, 06:22:27 PM »
ha, the thread did veer of course.

That's not at all what I'm saying.  I "questioned" the vision for downtown. What will define a resurgent downtown Jax?  What is the role of the Landing in that resurgence?  Should the City of Jax add Property Management of the Landing as yet another one of its Real Estate ventures?  Does that get Jax closer to its goal?  If the old courthouse property becomes a convention center, will that feed demand for whatever the Landing is to become?  Will the city sink money and resources into a residential redevelopment of the Landing, which IMO, is ill-advised if there is to be a massive new convention center complex so close by? 

Is it necessary for downtown Jax to be some sort of destination theme park for the entire northeast florida region, or maybe it can be a great neighborhood for the residents and businesses that choose to live, work, and play there.  Its distinction among other 'hoods in the region could be that it is totally walkable and prioritizes the pedestrian over the automobile.  I'm not suggesting a right or wrong answer, just presenting food for thought.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 06:27:24 PM by jaxnyc79 »

MusicMan

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #263 on: August 20, 2017, 08:47:11 AM »
I just got back from Vancouver, where the Convention Center sits right on the water in the middle of downtown (sound familiar?).

It is gorgeous, modern building with a huge open plaza on one side. It is surrounded by beautiful high end hotels AND high end residential towers. It's really a rather perfect model upon which Jax could develop the entire area around the old courthouse site, and am amazing historic district, Gastown, is just a few blocks away. 

Vancouver is without a doubt one of the best examples of urban planning and execution. It's the most "easy to be in and deal with" large cities I've ever been to.  And it has water everywhere. Our City planners/leaders/council would do well to go there for a week or two, then come back and do their best to imitate what that City has going on. 

thelakelander

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #264 on: August 20, 2017, 09:55:23 AM »
Vancouver is a great example of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting. Unfortunately, our planners don't really plan for downtown and our leaders attending these types of trips don't always have the background expertise to grasp the technical aspects of revitalization. Thus you end up with a riverwalk just because someone saw one in San Antonio or a Landing because the concept worked in Baltimore. However, things don't turn out the same because the context surrounding the projects are completely different and the importance of pedestrian scale compactness on the experience gets lost.
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jaxnyc79

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #265 on: August 20, 2017, 11:00:34 AM »
Vancouver is a great example of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting. Unfortunately, our planners don't really plan for downtown and our leaders attending these types of trips don't always have the background expertise to grasp the technical aspects of revitalization. Thus you end up with a riverwalk just because someone saw one in San Antonio or a Landing because the concept worked in Baltimore. However, things don't turn out the same because the context surrounding the projects are completely different and the importance of pedestrian scale compactness on the experience gets lost.

I completely agree thelakelander.

vicupstate

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #266 on: August 21, 2017, 12:57:07 PM »
1000% agree with Lake. The city has been making such trips for years with little to show for it.

I haven't been to Vancouver but Musicman's description would apply equally to San Diego.
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Jim

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #267 on: August 21, 2017, 02:09:19 PM »
Victoria, British Columbia is a great model too. 

Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #268 on: August 21, 2017, 02:27:47 PM »
I was just in Vancouver a few months ago, and I agree, both with the fact that it's a great model of a well planned city, and with the fact that the things that make it great aren't necessarily obvious to folks who don't know specifically what to look for, which is most people.

One part of "Vancouverism" that really seems to get them going in the right direction, is training effective city planners, and having them regularly work with the people and government (who don't necessarily have a planning background) about the things they want to see. With that in place, they've stayed successful in planning for decades, and people there really feel part of the whole thing. Here, we don't really keep knowledgeable people, and the level of public input depends entirely on who's in charge at any given time. Maybe we'll get there one day.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Keith-N-Jax

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Re: Mayor Curry wants the Landing back
« Reply #269 on: August 21, 2017, 04:08:29 PM »
Victoria, British Columbia is a great model too. 
1000% agree with Lake. (The city has been making such
1000% agree with Lake. The city has been making such trips for years with little to show for it.




It's called a vacation at tax payer's expense