Author Topic: ATL streetcar ridership plumments  (Read 3093 times)

exnewsman

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thelakelander

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 03:19:17 PM »
Gotta go somewhere that can actually generate ridership. Must also be fed riders from other modes to increase usage. Doesn't matter whether its streetcar, BRT, LRT, peoplemover, AV or heavy rail.  Sad to see many transit agencies making these same mistakes over and over again. Especially with starter lines.  At the end of the day, even your short starter needs to go somewhere. Houston nailed it with their LRT connection with downtown and TMC as the bookends.  More places should follow suit (if their context is right).
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

RattlerGator

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 05:35:43 PM »
"Sad to see many transit agencies making these same mistakes over and over again."

They are likely making those "mistakes" because that is the only way they could sell the program. And a select crew of urbanists desperately want to see these projects get done come hell or high water . . . for truly weird reasons.

I-10east

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 07:32:15 PM »
^^^I do agree that many of these rail projects seemed rushed. Makes you wonder how many backdoor deals are being made behind the scenes.

JaxJersey-licious

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 09:46:30 PM »
A very interesting related article...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/5-things-every-trolley-craving-mayor-should-know-214915

Brings up a lot of what's been brought up in these forums concerning the feasibility and practicality of new streetcar systems like Atlanta's.

thelakelander

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 07:34:47 AM »
^^^I do agree that many of these rail projects seemed rushed. Makes you wonder how many backdoor deals are being made behind the scenes.
I wouldn't apply it only to rail, although most (at least anything relying on federal funding) do take years to come to fruition.  There's a ton of successful projects out there as well. LRT in Houston and Dallas and BRT in Cleveland are three good examples of rail and bus projects.  I'd also argue that JTA's modification of their existing bus system, a few years back, is an example of a successful transit project. Nevertheless, no matter the project, at the end of the day some common sense and logic, concerning the connection between transit and supportive land use must be applied.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 07:45:26 AM »
A very interesting related article...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/5-things-every-trolley-craving-mayor-should-know-214915

Brings up a lot of what's been brought up in these forums concerning the feasibility and practicality of new streetcar systems like Atlanta's.

Good article. Much of it is a case in the practice of logic and common sense.  IMO, a major reason to spend money on fixed transit is to help stimulate a walkable environment and pedestrian scale infill development. However, you can't do this by just focusing on transit.  The incorporation of supportive land use policy and selecting routes that penetrate places where pedestrians want to go (at a pedestrian scale level) is a must. 

Another thing I'd add is if you're going to invest in a local fixed circulator system, you need to make sure the rest of the transit system funnels riders into it.  Why spend hundreds of millions on something nice, only to have a million bus lines compete against it for the same limited pool of potential riders?  If you're going to invest the money, run it as a high frequency transit spine.  That way, you'll get the riders and the economic development.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

TimmyB

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 08:33:28 AM »
Maybe I'm naive, but I get really incensed when I read comments (not just on this site, btw) that public transit should "pay its own way".  What a crock.  Do our city streets pay their own way?  Are we making a profit from them?  Of course not.  We pay through the nose in taxes, be it income, petroleum, whatever.  We do it for the common good.  The same must be true for public transport.  Do our airlines pay their own way?  No, our taxes build the billion dollar airports and for the FAA to keep everyone safe.

We need to get over this preposterous assertion that rail and bus must "pay their own way" to be viable.

jaxjags

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 09:20:55 AM »
A very interesting related article...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/5-things-every-trolley-craving-mayor-should-know-214915

Brings up a lot of what's been brought up in these forums concerning the feasibility and practicality of new streetcar systems like Atlanta's.

Good article. Much of it is a case in the practice of logic and common sense.  IMO, a major reason to spend money on fixed transit is to help stimulate a walkable environment and pedestrian scale infill development. However, you can't do this by just focusing on transit.  The incorporation of supportive land use policy and selecting routes that penetrate places where pedestrians want to go (at a pedestrian scale level) is a must. 

Another thing I'd add is if you're going to invest in a local fixed circulator system, you need to make sure the rest of the transit system funnels riders into it.  Why spend hundreds of millions on something nice, only to have a million bus lines compete against it for the same limited pool of potential riders?  If you're going to invest the money, run it as a high frequency transit spine.  That way, you'll get the riders and the economic development.


Lakelander, based on your comment of "high frequency spine", for JAX today, where is best place to start. Use your approach promoting infill, etc. What would you connect and what would you use. I'm very interested in your professional opinion to compare to recent JEA approaches.

thelakelander

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 10:40:26 AM »
Depends on the mode. If commuter rail, probably DT to Clay County but operating it as a hybrid system with more stops and frequent service, similar to the Sprinter in Oceanside (San Diego). If LRT, DT to Southpoint/Town Center as a starter. Given the length, both could be cost prohibitive. If Skyway extension, then Kings Ave to San Marco or the O&M/JRTC area to Five Points via Brooklyn. If strretcar, DT to Five Points/King St. BRT with dedicated lanes is a little more complicated. Ten years ago, I would have said the Arlington Expressway corridor but  Regency is dying now.  Other interesting corridors would be Main, Kings Rd, etc. The con is our context. We don't have a setting with a ton of existing destinations on a single inner city corridor like Euclid in Cleveland. So your line will end up taking some crazy circuitous route.
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jaxjags

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 11:22:11 AM »
Depends on the mode. If commuter rail, probably DT to Clay County but operating it as a hybrid system with more stops and frequent service, similar to the Sprinter in Oceanside (San Diego). If LRT, DT to Southpoint/Town Center as a starter. Given the length, both could be cost prohibitive. If Skyway extension, then Kings Ave to San Marco or the O&M/JRTC area to Five Points via Brooklyn. If strretcar, DT to Five Points/King St. BRT with dedicated lanes is a little more complicated. Ten years ago, I would have said the Arlington Expressway corridor but  Regency is dying now.  Other interesting corridors would be Main, Kings Rd, etc. The con is our context. We don't have a setting with a ton of existing destinations on a single inner city corridor like Euclid in Cleveland. So your line will end up taking some crazy circuitous route.

Ok given that and your approach how about:

Skyway extension to Brooklyn feeding to streetcar from there to King Street/Riverside

Skyway extension to San Marco  feeding  the commuter rail to OP

LRT  to SJTC is probably too expensive for today. Instead what mode could feed a line from the commuter rail at JTB/Phillips to the SJTC/UNF. Approximately 6 miles - LRT?

Takes approach that all modes connect with Skyway to make it truly a usable system DT.


Murder_me_Rachel

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 02:35:25 PM »
If you give the people coffee and great music, they will park and ride.

Traveller

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 03:16:54 PM »
If you give the people coffee and great music, they will park and ride.

That's a very nice hat you're wearing, and I don't mean that in an Eddie Haskell kind of way.

Murder_me_Rachel

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 03:22:34 PM »
^^ Glad someone else is old enough to appreciate and remember the best damn 90's movie ever.

Adam White

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Re: ATL streetcar ridership plumments
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 03:43:37 PM »
^^ Glad someone else is old enough to appreciate and remember the best damn 90's movie ever.

Oh my. The best 90s movie? Really?
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