Results of the Boom: Dead Projects

[thelakelander]

I don't agree Lake, in 1900, we were far ahead of Miami, 1940-60 we were neck and neck, comes the AFL and the POST FLAGLER ERA and Miami metro Skyrockets past us. Dallas got it's NFL team with a population of about 600,000 - 800,000 then rocketed past us. Ditto Tampa. It's our turn now, good team or bad, we can't pay for the commercials we got last night. This sort of thing makes every television game a WIN for Jacksonville. With our space and our river, we could overtake Miami before, my wires are depowered, I'm labeled "NOT IN SERVICE" and go to the big carbarn in the Sky.

"I'm a believer!"

OCKLAWAHA

When we forget about imaginary municipal city limit lines and look at metro area population, you'll see those places were already signficantly larger than us as far back as 1950.  Metro Miami was almost twice the size as Metro Jax (579,017 vs. 304,029) and Metro Tampa was larger as well (409,113 vs. 304,029).  In 1950, Dallas was much larger (1,136,144 vs. 304,029).

link to numbers: http://www.demographia.com/dm-usmet-fr50.htm

Our day as the true un-contested big dog in Florida peaked somewhere between 1880 and 1900.  Excluding Orlando, during the last 100 years, we were never significantly larger than these other places.  We can probably blame Flagler and Plant for extending the railroad across the St. Johns to South and Central Florida.  I believe in the future of Jacksonville, but I also accept the notion that urban centers like Miami, San Francisco, Dallas, NYC, Chicago, etc. are on a completely different level due to shear size.  

[thelakelander]

I can go ahead and say about the Miami image. The 4 cranes in the lower right of the picture are part of Metropolitan Miami development. They are working on phase 2 (MET2), which is a 47-story office tower, and an ajoining 42-story Marriott Marquis hotel.

Thanks for the update.  Considering the lack of commercial projects during Miami's condo boom period, there may be some untapped demand for office and hotel space serving that urban core's higher population base.

[thelakelander]

I think that the real problem we have downtown is the boneheaded impulse to tear down structures on the mere possibility that there might be a development.

I think it might turn out that we actually tore down more than we built during this last 'boom'.

Good point.  The failure of many of these projects have nothing to do with places like Miami or anywhere else.  Some projects, like the St. James and St. Johns Point, were pie-in-the sky.  On the other hand, the courthouse delay alone is probably responsible for the lack of movement of at least four (323 Duval, Ambassador Hotel, Jones Furniture Building and old JEA Tower conversion).  Politics are part of the blame for the Landing's expansion plans dying and Kuhn's projects not being further along before he went under (ex. the chilled water line issue with Riverwatch, the Barnett and the Laura Trio.  Some others, like new public library, took out buildings that already had positive uses taking place in them.  Just imagine if the new library had been built on Main Street's surface parking lots to complement the now demolished loft district and Rhodes Furniture Building.  The complete lack of a general downtown vision has limited the potential positive impact of many new infill projects by allowing the demolition of older buildings that would have been ideal for use by urban pioneers and small business owners.  The buildings lost were the important fabric needed to bring the scattered newer projects together to create one larger vibrant area of urban synergy.

[downtownjag]

Lake, I know you are right on the ambassador; I asked the source a couple of months ago.  That is one of my favorite possible's downtown right now.  What is Riverwatch?

[reednavy]

Safely can agree, thank God the St. James wasn't built. Our city didn't need a new tallest that looked like a big white box, and was completely out of place and location.

[ProjectMaximus]

It's in the very article you're posting on.  Scroll up to find it.
"River Watch at City Centre"

One of Cameron Kuhn's pies in the sky. Would've filled in the skyline really nicely, though.

What is Riverwatch?

[downtownjag]

It's in the very article you're posting on.  Scroll up to find it.
"River Watch at City Centre"

One of Cameron Kuhn's pies in the sky. Would've filled in the skyline really nicely, though.

What is Riverwatch?

Ahh yes, thank you. 

[ProjectMaximus]

I'm gonna ramble a bit before I go to sleep. I apologize in advance.

Sure, from the standpoint of civic pride, it might be cool if Jax had remained and always was the king of the state. If kids all over the state of Florida grew up wanting to move to the big city and that city was Jacksonville. But as things stand now, I don't necessarily want Jacksonville to grow and develop at the expense of the rest of the state. If that's the only way, then I'll take it, but I'd much rather the entire region grow and improve together even if it means Jax always plays second or third fiddle to the other cities to our south. Don't get me wrong, I share everyone's vision of the potential in this city and the natural advantages we have here that could, and perhaps should have, put us at the top all along. But I just want to avoid the idea that we must be the best in the state to the detriment of the rest of the area. Instead, I just want us to be the best we can be, period. (And maybe I'm the only one who has lost sight of this, in which case I'm just writing to remind myself of this fact)

If our population is to double in the next 30 years as projected, I'll gladly take a Floridian Megalopolis that rivals the one up in the Northeast. Miami = Boston, Keys = Cape Cod (et al), Tampa = Philly, Orlando - NYC (i guess...), Sarasota = Providence, Jax = DC, Daytona = Baltimore (hehe)

And then Arizona can become what Florida once was.

[ProjectMaximus]

I feel bad about leaving out West Palm...maybe they'll be Hartford.

[thelakelander]

I agree.  There's room for positive growth in all of Florida's cities. 

[Jason]

I just hope all the room that is left is not consumed.  The entire country needs to greatly restrict its development boundaires, enhance water consumption restrictions, and greatly reduce polution.  Once of Jacksonville's greatest assets is the pristene wilderness that surrounds us.  Central Florida is the very example of what sprawl will do to the overall health of a region all for the sake of development.  We need to have some natural Florida and USA left for our children to enjoy.

[thelakelander]

Most definately.  As Miami has shown during its boom, we can grow through infill development and allowing higher densities in certain areas, as opposed to spreading outward like a virus.

[ProjectMaximus]

Agreed. (with you both). Definitely one of the growing concerns as we move further into the 21st century.

There was a story a few months ago on one of the NPR/PRI news programs about the expected population growth in Florida (which I was referencing when I said something like doubling by 2040) and they discussed the likelihood of our state even being able to sustain such a large population.

[Jason]

Our aquifer is drying up, tapping the rivers is already causing concerns, polution of our aquatic resources is causing concerns, and aging sprawling infrastructure is becomming more and more expensive to maintain.  I doubt this state will support a doubleing population without some serious rethinking of our water supply, polution control, and development regulations. 

IMO, water is going to be one of the top issues facing our generation.  Desalinization on a massive scale needs to happen yesterday and we need to abandon deep aquifer wells and stop pumping polution into our waterways.

[reednavy]

The Lofts at East Union and Bishopgate are my 2 faves not built.