Tropical Storm Fay Floods Jacksonville

[stephendare]

You all really need to take a step back...

1. In reality, no cities storm water facilities are planned for flash floods... its not cost feasible, and it just isn't possible.

2. Cities are planned to handle what happens most of the time (occasional storm, and they do that fine)

3. Blaming the city of jax on poor planning is wrong. nobody could have planned for this system or any other tropical system, you do the best you can, and when something like this happens you tough it out, and clean up afterwords.

You're right.  There was nothing the city could have done to keep the river from overflowing its banks or keep excess water from settling at the lowest spots in the region.

actually there is.  Its called 'drainage'.

Also available are riverwalls and pumps.

We can drain all we want and spend a trillion dollars on installing 10' high levees along the riverbanks throughout Duval.  Excess water will still settle at the lowest elevations in certain areas.  No one should be shocked about areas like McCoys and Hogans Creek flooding.  They were originally swamps.

Lake, this was the exact argument that the good old boys used not to drain the northwest quadrant.

This is after all the state that drained the swamps to create real estate, and I don't know where this idea that we cant properly drain and pump comes from.

See:  The Netherlands.

We arent being helped by being forced into building surface infrastructure like roads, police and fire stations to accomodate our wicked sprawl into the low lying areas.

And of course, for reasons unknown to God and man, our Electric Authority is apparently not designed to be waterproof.

These are things we can change.

[BridgeTroll]

Bridge, It was tongue in cheek.

    OK... I will remove foot from mouth...

[RiversideGator]

what is there to correct?   the solidness it unquestionable.   Thick and dense in fact.

Of course, our drainage and infrastructure is fine, as proven by the pretty pictures.  Now if we can just sort out which canals and retention ponds are republican or democrat, the picture would have as much depth as its formidable density.

Stephen:  What you dont understand is that it is probably not financially feasible to engineer a system to deal with such infrequent huge rain amounts.  Sure we can do things to improve drainage but the bottom line is we live along a river and the ocean in a low lying area.  Lots of rain will accumulate in areas and cause flooding no matter what we do.

[RiversideGator]

You all really need to take a step back...

1. In reality, no cities storm water facilities are planned for flash floods... its not cost feasible, and it just isn't possible.

2. Cities are planned to handle what happens most of the time (occasional storm, and they do that fine)

3. Blaming the city of jax on poor planning is wrong. nobody could have planned for this system or any other tropical system, you do the best you can, and when something like this happens you tough it out, and clean up afterwords.

You're right.  There was nothing the city could have done to keep the river from overflowing its banks or keep excess water from settling at the lowest spots in the region.

actually there is.  Its called 'drainage'.

Also available are riverwalls and pumps.

We can drain all we want and spend a trillion dollars on installing 10' high levees along the riverbanks throughout Duval.  Excess water will still settle at the lowest elevations in certain areas.  No one should be shocked about areas like McCoys and Hogans Creek flooding.  They were originally swamps.

Lake, this was the exact argument that the good old boys used not to drain the northwest quadrant.

This is after all the state that drained the swamps to create real estate, and I don't know where this idea that we cant properly drain and pump comes from.

See:  The Netherlands.

We arent being helped by being forced into building surface infrastructure like roads, police and fire stations to accomodate our wicked sprawl into the low lying areas.

And of course, for reasons unknown to God and man, our Electric Authority is apparently not designed to be waterproof.

These are things we can change.

1)  Are you saying that they dont have floods in the Netherlands?
2)  How many tropical storms and large rain events do they have in the Netherlands?

[stephendare]

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081908/met_320486922.shtml

Duval schools will be closed Wednesday and Thursday, as will all city offices, Mayor John Peyton announced during a 6:40 p.m. news conference at the city's Emergency Operations Center. Information on where shelters will be open will be announced Wednesday. Episcopal High School also announced it would be closed both days.

With the libraries closed, early voting also will be suspended.

Peyton asked residents not to panic but warned them to expect lengthy power outages like those seen during tropical weather in 2004. That's when some people went up to nine days without power.

Category 1 hurricane winds are at least 75 mph and Peyton said gusts could hit 85 mph to 95 mph. He said he expects there to be downed trees and power lines and other debris that will cause the outages. He said city workers will be clearing ditches and other areas to help prevent flooding.

He suggested that people living in low-lying and flood-prone areas, especially those in mobile homes, to consider relocating.

Peyton also said if the forecast should hold, substantial flooding should be expected. He said the storm surge alone will be 3 to 5 feet.

"This storm needs to be taken seriously," Peyton warned. "The idea is we need families to prepare for this storm."

Peyton said the city's emergency operations center will be fully operational Wednesday morning. He said he has spoken to Gov. Charlie Crist, who has promised any assistance the city needs, including use of the National Guard.

Other leaders in the region have been meeting about the storm, now known as Tropical Storm Fay, but no other announcements have been made.

Officials in Baker, Bradford, Clay, Putnam and Nassau counties announced no emergency measures earlier today, when the storm's strength and track were less certain. They said public schools will be open Wednesday. It's unclear if that will change based on the latest forecast.

St. Johns County public schools don't open until Friday, while Catholic schools in that county will be closed Wednesday. The district has canceled school-related activities that were already planned for Wednesday, including open houses, orientations and practices. Employees are expected to work unless they can't because of safety issues.

Catholic schools in the other jurisdictions will be open.

The news of emergency measures in Jacksonville came about 90 minutes after the National Hurricane Center issued a hurricane watch for Fay from Flagler Beach to Altamaha Sound in Southeast Georgia.

The storm is expected to emerge off the east coast of Florida near Daytona Beach on Wednesday and churn in the ocean before turning west, possibly hitting Northwest St. Johns County as a Category 1 hurricane just north of St. Augustine Thursday afternoon, said Phil Peterson, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service.

A Category 1 hurricane has winds of at least 75 mph an hour. Peterson said rainfall amounts could be at least 6 inches on the coast and lesser amounts inland. Significant beach erosion is possible.

Peterson said the unpredictable storm could strike south or north of the expected landfall point, depending on various weather conditions.

"There still is a lot of uncertainly with this forecast track," Peterson said.

Peterson said the current projection is for the storm to hit the coast and move west-northwest as a hurricane, passing just to the south of Jacksonville. It would then move across extreme North Florida before gradually weakening into a tropical storm and then a depression, Peterson said.

[uptowngirl]

Well the city must be doing OK if we aren;t inlcuded in the disaster counties huh? Non need to spend gazillions of dollars afterall, just a couple thousand to save Corine's house!

[stephendare]

Well the city must be doing OK if we aren;t inlcuded in the disaster counties huh? Non need to spend gazillions of dollars afterall, just a couple thousand to save Corine's house!

a couple of thousand for sandbags?  what kind of sand were they using exactly?

[uptowngirl]

Ahhh...but there is also the labor cost for filling, delivering, and placement. Unless it is just a given that Corine doesn't have to pay 

[civil42806]

Since the bickering is reaching new heights for the site I decided to dig through the NWS and try to figure out how much rain we had in 2004, I certainly didn't remember anything approaching this level. 

TS bonnie was tough to find good records but did find a map that layed out the rainfall on a general scale, showed jacksonville received 1 to 3 inches.

TS charlie, according the NWS 1.73" of rain.

Hurricane Frances is the one I think most of us remember most vividly, 9.71" of rain.

Keep in mind this is spread out over a month.  Totals are no where near what the city received in just a couple of days.  Most of the damage for these three storms was actually wind damage, trees and tree limbs, knocking out power and falling onto homes and vehicles.

[stephendare]

I think my continuing point is that we can sure as hell do a much better job of planning and preparation, no matter how many inches we get.

Even if its horrifying 30 or 36 inches of rain.

[gatorback]

I haven't missed much...Lol...anywho, I'm glad she got the sandbags.  I know the city has a policy not to do ad hoc work on private property.  It has to do with insurance and liability.  Should somebody get fired, no.

[Ocklawaha]

Rain anyone?

Let's see, Donna hit the First Coast in 1960. Making landfall down in Fort Myers, she dumped 18" of rain in Live Oak, and similar amounts here. Storm surge was 8' above normal. For you beach-I'll just ride out the next one-types... Go out and take a tape from the highest tide, and add 8' to that. Then add some giant waves on top and you'll get an idea of what your in for. But Donna was just a warm up.

In 1964, Dora a large well defined category 4 storm headed toward Brunswick, the outflow from an off coast storm Cleo (if I recall) started to take her energy down. She slowed and winds started to drop, but she still packed a dangerous punch. Suddenly she veered west, and made landfall at St. Augustine, and a bee line for Jacksonville. The storm surge at St. Augustine was 12' above normal high tide. Needless to say, only the castle and the tops of the larger hotels were out of the path. She dumped 23.27 inches of rain over Mayo, Florida (just south of Live Oak). She took out the beaches like a giant aquatic bull dozier.  In fact the damage in todays dollars would be 2 BILLION, in Jax alone. BUT, today we have 200,000 new homes and buildings in the lowlands of the Intercoastal and other parts of the city that would make that figure much, much higher.

These were the first storms since 1851 to hit the Jacksonville area, and they dispelled the myth that Jax is immune from tropical storms. So perhaps Fay was a good thing, sand bags and all... Perhaps we have seen the devil and better understand how to respond. Or perhaps her gentle blow, gave us another false sense of security?

An interesting sidebar, was noted before both of the above storms. 30 days before they came in, in BOTH cases a sudden and unexplained migration of sea turtles hit the beaches, headed INLAND! It got the attention of every science type in the land, the Seminole made a statement that the "ancients of Jacksonville, told them the turtle exit is a sure sign that a tropical storm will hit..." Of course the science types just blew it off. The NWS gave us 12 hour warnings, and in both cases the Native System gave us 30 days. The way I see it, it's NWS - 0 and Seminoles - 2!  Wonder if this was seen this time? Was Fay too weak to count? Could it be there aren't enough turtles left to notice them?

OCKLAWAHA

[gatorback]

OK.  Given TD 7, and beyond, what were the lessons learned from fay as more are sure to come.

[Lunican]

JACKSONVILLE IS FLOODED.; Water Reaches First-Story Windows of the City.

JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 13, 1903 -- The rain which had been falling incessantly since yesterday assumed about daybreak almost the proportions of a cloudburst, and when the citizens prepared to leave for their places of business many of them found their homes completely surrounded by water.

Full Article:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C04EED81F30E733A25757C1A9639C946297D6CF

[BridgeTroll]

8.5 inches in 24 hours... last paragraph describes Hogans Creek flooding...

There must be local accounts of this flood.