Author Topic: The Country's Largest Television Markets  (Read 9928 times)

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26552
    • Modern Cities
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2017, 02:09:54 PM »
Jacksonville is more like Tampa than it is Memphis, and it always has been. Nor is it a close call. A hundred years ago, we were the big dog in a state with less than one million residents. A population equal to Hillsborough and Pinellas, combined.

Not true.  This is more North Florida folklore than anything else.  Never in Jax's history was it a lone "big dog" of dominance in Florida's history. In the 19th century, Pensacola and Key West were just as dominant or larger and Tampa was on our ass by the turn-of-the-century. Fueled by the cigar industry, Hillsborough had already surpassed Duval County in population by 1910.  In 1912, Pinellas was carved out of it.

1910
57,699 - Jacksonville
37,782 - Tampa*
4,127 - St. Petersburg

*- [West Tampa was a separate city until 1925.  One of the reasons Jax annexed Murray Hill in 1925 was to bump the city's population back over Tampa's after the Tampa-West Tampa merger.


1910
75,163 - Duval County
78,374 - Hillsborough County
Pinellas County (was a part of Hillsborough County until 1912)


1920
113,540 - Duval County
88,257 - Hillsborough County
28,265 - Pinellas County


1930
155,503 - Duval County
153,519 - Hillsborough County
62,149 - Pinellas County

The two urban areas basically stayed at a similar scale until the 1920s land boom catapulted Central and South Florida forever.  South Florida then received another economic boost due to Castro taking over Cuba in the 1960s, bumping it to another level above the Tampa area.  The mouse would then come and transform Orlando from a 1970s version of modern day Lakeland into the sprawling metropolis it is today.

Quote
Now, those two counties combined easily more than double us.

They doubled us over 50 years ago.

Quote
Yes, the Bay Area is much larger but our areas remain very similar -- as long as you understand people are people, not accents (and that difference is exaggerated).

Pinellas County is roughly half the Bay Area.  We have very little in common economically and development-wise with Pinellas. I'll give you central Tampa, but I can make that argument for certain pockets of any city in the US that was of decent size between 1910 and 1930.  Then even with Tampa, it was always more economically diverse due to immigrants moving there specifically to work in the cigar industry.

Quote
Plus, the growth in Jacksonville may only now be kicking into high gear. Memphis? Hell no.

Growth in Jax isn't kicking into high gear.  I equate high gear growth to what's taking place in Miami, Charlotte, Austin, Houston, Raleigh, etc. Here, the core city is still dropping in population just like the core city of many of it's early 20th century Midwestern and Sunbelt counterparts (ex. Memphis, Birmingham, Louisville, Dayton, etc.).  Fringe areas like St. Johns County are booming at a rate that suburban Memphis isn't.  So in another 20 years, we may not be of similar scale if the current trends continue.  On the other hand, Florida's other large cities are about 10 to 15 years ahead of us in terms of densifying.  Since college, I've seen St. Pete go from being called God's Waiting Room to having one of Florida's most vibrant downtowns and bicycle friendly landscapes.

Quote
I do love your dogged refusal to let go of that narrative, though. It's quite familiar. So many Floridians just don't know how to see this city, even when it's in plain sight 24/7/365.

I see, accept and embrace the city for what it is.  A second tier regional Sunbelt city with a diverse mix of neighborhoods that we still haven't found a way to better utilize, revitalize and promote.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

JaxJersey-licious

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2017, 11:28:08 PM »
Haha, I still say that Memphis is pretty similar. Like Jax, it's a sprawling second tier regional mid-sized metropolitan area with a core city that covers hundreds of miles.  Like Jax, it's also a historic river city and early 20th century regional rail hub, leading to an economy once centered around maritime, manufacturing and distribution.  Like Jax, due to it's prominence in the South during Reconstruction, it's also a center of African-American culture and enlightenment in areas such as jazz and blues.  I'd argue that Jax and Memphis are closer in scale and share more similarities with one another than say Jax does with a recent Sunbelt sprawler like Orlando or Raleigh.

Yeah, I'm curious what happened to Memphis. When I was younger I found Memphis and Va. Beach as bigger flashier rivals to Jax (certainly livelier) but unlike Hampton Roads which growth seems to be stymied by the large military economy, bad air and highway connections, and higher state taxes, I can't put my finger how they're not benefiting from a state economic boom where Nashville, Knoxville, and Chatanooga flourishes. I understand airline mergers hit them hard like the bank/insurance mergers did Jax but can you imagine any thriving large city needing to shrink its city limits. 

I-10east

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4869
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 12:42:36 AM »
Alot of these markets (ala Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York) have a multitude of adjoining cities, bolstering the market size. I'm very surprised that Jax is behind Birmingham in TV market size; Jax is growing much faster, larger metro population etc.   

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26552
    • Modern Cities
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2017, 05:48:52 AM »
Haha, I still say that Memphis is pretty similar. Like Jax, it's a sprawling second tier regional mid-sized metropolitan area with a core city that covers hundreds of miles.  Like Jax, it's also a historic river city and early 20th century regional rail hub, leading to an economy once centered around maritime, manufacturing and distribution.  Like Jax, due to it's prominence in the South during Reconstruction, it's also a center of African-American culture and enlightenment in areas such as jazz and blues.  I'd argue that Jax and Memphis are closer in scale and share more similarities with one another than say Jax does with a recent Sunbelt sprawler like Orlando or Raleigh.

Yeah, I'm curious what happened to Memphis. When I was younger I found Memphis and Va. Beach as bigger flashier rivals to Jax (certainly livelier) but unlike Hampton Roads which growth seems to be stymied by the large military economy, bad air and highway connections, and higher state taxes, I can't put my finger how they're not benefiting from a state economic boom where Nashville, Knoxville, and Chatanooga flourishes. I understand airline mergers hit them hard like the bank/insurance mergers did Jax but can you imagine any thriving large city needing to shrink its city limits. 
It probably would not hurt us to shrink our limits. Like Memphis, you can find pros and cons for not gobbling up as much land area as possible for sprawl. As far as Memphis goes, like St. Louis and New Orleans, it boomed around the Mississippi River and railroad expansion to the west.  Those days are long gone, so in a sense, it's like an old Midwestern city trapped in the south. Also, while most regions think regionally, there's still a lot of local competition and lack of regional coordination due to the metropolitan area being made up of three states.

Quote
Why does the region perform so poorly? It's harder to do when you have so many state borders, which make the core city of Memphis an easy target to poach jobs. A study released last month concluded Memphis is one of the worst metro areas for 'job piracy.'

Instead of competing with nearby cities and counties, successful regions see and market themselves as such. This helps the whole region grow, instead of jobs just shifting from city to city in the same area. Some metro areas have even signed anti-piracy agreements prohibiting the solicitation of businesses located within the same metro area.

http://wreg.com/2014/08/18/why-memphis-economy-struggles-to-improve/

https://www.ft.com/content/edaa4c76-ca9d-11e5-a8ef-ea66e967dd44
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:50:56 AM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Jim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
    • MetJax
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2017, 10:23:39 AM »
Alot of these markets (ala Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York) have a multitude of adjoining cities, bolstering the market size. I'm very surprised that Jax is behind Birmingham in TV market size; Jax is growing much faster, larger metro population etc.
Birmingham's TV market covers a lot of small and mid sized towns.  Jax's market is highly concentrated to us and a few pockets of small populations elsewhere.

RattlerGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 756
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2017, 10:33:43 AM »
Ennis, your history comprehension ain't worth a damn and that Central Florida bias is shining through. Jacksonville was the clear leader. But . . . as I've indicated, please continue. And when Memphis one day gets a magnificent stretch of beach -- when proximity to a beach is the desired locale today of Americans all over much of this nation and warps any discussion about urban cores and their growth, or lack thereof -- we'll have another talk.

Only one problem; when the hell will Memphis be near a beach?

As for Hillsborough and Pinellas -- stop, just stop. They hate each other, they are very distinct urban areas, and only an urban planning slave to numbers wouldn't get that. Much as urban planners keep bitching and moaning about an American preference for distinctly non-dense housing, you see something that is not there and intuit things that are not true.

If you know how to take a step back and think about it, though, the renaissance of St. Pete only serves to prove *my* point about the relative lack of similarity between Jacksonville and Memphis. I suspect this is something Shad Khan has recognized and is the reason why he said he'd prefer to not drive the train on the Shipyards development but if no one else stepped up, he would move forward to do the development right.

Tacachale

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6144
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2017, 11:14:44 AM »
Ennis, your history comprehension ain't worth a damn and that Central Florida bias is shining through. Jacksonville was the clear leader. But . . . as I've indicated, please continue. And when Memphis one day gets a magnificent stretch of beach -- when proximity to a beach is the desired locale today of Americans all over much of this nation and warps any discussion about urban cores and their growth, or lack thereof -- we'll have another talk.

Only one problem; when the hell will Memphis be near a beach?

As for Hillsborough and Pinellas -- stop, just stop. They hate each other, they are very distinct urban areas, and only an urban planning slave to numbers wouldn't get that. Much as urban planners keep bitching and moaning about an American preference for distinctly non-dense housing, you see something that is not there and intuit things that are not true.

If you know how to take a step back and think about it, though, the renaissance of St. Pete only serves to prove *my* point about the relative lack of similarity between Jacksonville and Memphis. I suspect this is something Shad Khan has recognized and is the reason why he said he'd prefer to not drive the train on the Shipyards development but if no one else stepped up, he would move forward to do the development right.

Jacksonville was probably the most prominent city in Florida in the late 19th and early 20th century, but at the time Florida was a backwater and Jax wasn't substantially more populous than Pensacola or Key West. Tampa caught up around the same time, and their wider region grew much faster, eventually leapfrogging us. Pinellas and Hillsborough are not "very distinct urban areas", they are nodes of the same metro area with a lot of economic and cultural crossover. It's not rare for people who live in Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, Brandon, etc., to work in one of the other communities. Other than being a lot more spread out, it's not notably different than people living in one Jax neighborhood or suburb and working in another.

What does tend to get lost in the folklore narrative is that Jacksonville did not become *less* prominent as other parts of the state grew, except by comparison to those. The reality is that Florida, including Jax, simply became much more prominent on a national scale. 100 years ago, no one would have compared Jax (or Tampa, for that matter) to a Memphis, New Orleans, or Buffalo, but today we're their peers.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

RattlerGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 756
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2017, 10:02:38 AM »
Tacachale, are you unaware of the tug of war the Bay Area has been engaged in over that baseball team down there?

That fight, and it has been a very serious fight, is a proxy for the rather obvious FACT they are distinct urban areas. The St. Pete Times and Tampa Tribune could be referenced in case you're confused about this point. You do remember those two newspapers, don't you? Neither now exists but St. Pete won the newspaper fight (now cast as the Tampa Bay Times) and the baseball fight.

Tampa Bay, however, is not a city and never will be. Tampa is home to some great folks but, much like my friend Ennis, is a bit delusional when it comes to Florida history.  They desperately wanted to be the lead city in Florida. I mean, why do you think they idiotically named their local university the University of South Florida ? ? ?

Because they are delusional and thought their "name it and claim it" attitude could somehow block Miami from becoming the straw that stirs the drink in this state. Like Ennis, they were wrong. Who the hell thinks a town in West-central Florida is in South Florida? Tampans (or is that Tampons), that's who.

Adam White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2312
    • Facebook
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2017, 03:00:52 PM »
I mean, why do you think they idiotically named their local university the University of South Florida ? ? ?

I don't follow, RG. Not only is USF (arguably) in south Florida, it was the only state university in southern part of the state when it was opened and named. And I don't think it was named by the City of Tampa.

Perhaps it should've been named USWF - but then again, maybe UNF should've been named UNEF.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other about Tampa having a chip on its shoulder - but if you want to sustain your argument, I think you're going to need better evidence!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:04:29 PM by Adam White »
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26552
    • Modern Cities
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2017, 03:07:22 PM »
Rattler, are you seriously claiming I have Central Florida bias and then replying to Tacachale like that?

Urban areas have nothing to do with municipalities and individuals getting along.  If we had to agree on all 19 members of our council agreeing on everything, Jax would be multiple urban areas.  One of the reasons Memphis has fallen behind many of it's peers has been it's inability to get neighbors to stop competing against each other in favor of the greater good of the region.

Also, the naming of USF has nothing to do with anyone trying to be a lead city in Florida.  Back in 1956, it happened to be the southernmost university in the state university system.  Nothing sinister about that.

What does tend to get lost in the folklore narrative is that Jacksonville did not become *less* prominent as other parts of the state grew, except by comparison to those. The reality is that Florida, including Jax, simply became much more prominent on a national scale. 100 years ago, no one would have compared Jax (or Tampa, for that matter) to a Memphis, New Orleans, or Buffalo, but today we're their peers.

True, one hundred years ago, our peers would have been places like Tacoma, Erie, Flint and Savannah.  Out of the list of cities in Jax's range back in 1920, a few like Nashville, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, Fort Worth, Kansas City and Oklahoma City have emerged while others like Utica, Canto and Reading have not.

https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab15.txt
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Tacachale

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6144
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2017, 03:19:49 PM »
Tacachale, are you unaware of the tug of war the Bay Area has been engaged in over that baseball team down there?

That fight, and it has been a very serious fight, is a proxy for the rather obvious FACT they are distinct urban areas. The St. Pete Times and Tampa Tribune could be referenced in case you're confused about this point. You do remember those two newspapers, don't you? Neither now exists but St. Pete won the newspaper fight (now cast as the Tampa Bay Times) and the baseball fight.

Tampa Bay, however, is not a city and never will be. Tampa is home to some great folks but, much like my friend Ennis, is a bit delusional when it comes to Florida history.  They desperately wanted to be the lead city in Florida. I mean, why do you think they idiotically named their local university the University of South Florida ? ? ?

Because they are delusional and thought their "name it and claim it" attitude could somehow block Miami from becoming the straw that stirs the drink in this state. Like Ennis, they were wrong. Who the hell thinks a town in West-central Florida is in South Florida? Tampans (or is that Tampons), that's who.

You appear to be confused over what a "metropolitan area" is.

I am aware of Tampa Bay's "baseball fight". It's not any different than other metro areas have faced when different local communities have vied to have their area's move there. This happened recently when the Atlanta Braves left the City of Atlanta for the suburb of Cumberland. Just as that team didn't become the Cumberland Braves, the Tampa Bay Rays will be "Tampa Bay" wherever they play in Tampa Bay Area. Because it's the same metro area.

The Tampa Tribune and St. Pete/Tampa Bay Times started out in the early days when Tampa and St. Pete really were more distinct communities than they are today. But for decades, they were were two newspapers that served the same market and competed with each other for readers. When the Tampa Bay Times bought out the Tribune, this is the quote they gave: "The continued competition between the newspapers was threatening to both... There are very few cities that are able to sustain more than one daily newspaper, and the Tampa Bay region is not among them."

While they are distinct cities, they are nodes within a wider metropolitan area with a lot of synergy between them
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26552
    • Modern Cities
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2017, 03:34:19 PM »
Yeah, Tampa and St. Petersburg are no different than Lakeland and Winter Haven in Polk County, Daytona and Deltona in Volusia or Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach in South Florida.  In the case of the Hampton Roads MSA, Virginia Beach is the larger city but it's actually of suburb of Norfolk, which is essentially the MSA's historic urban core. Yet, Virginia has independent cities, which is another animal altogether.  Who knows, if Jax had not merged with Duval in 1968, perhaps the Southside would have incorporated to be Jax's version of Norfolk's Virginia Beach. 
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Tacachale

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6144
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2017, 03:47:45 PM »
What does tend to get lost in the folklore narrative is that Jacksonville did not become *less* prominent as other parts of the state grew, except by comparison to those. The reality is that Florida, including Jax, simply became much more prominent on a national scale. 100 years ago, no one would have compared Jax (or Tampa, for that matter) to a Memphis, New Orleans, or Buffalo, but today we're their peers.

True, one hundred years ago, our peers would have been places like Tacoma, Erie, Flint and Savannah.  Out of the list of cities in Jax's range back in 1920, a few like Nashville, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, Fort Worth, Kansas City and Oklahoma City have emerged while others like Utica, Canto and Reading have not.

https://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab15.txt

Fun fact, in James Weldon Johnson's novel The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man, written in 1912, the narrator describes Jacksonville as a small town, and names Richmond and Nashville as two cities that it doesn't compare to in terms of the "society phase of life" and the community of "educated and well-to-do" African Americans. Today, we're those cities' peer.

He describes Jacksonville as a comparatively tolerant place for African-Americans and gets a good job in a cigar factory, where "the color line is not drawn". It's where the narrator is finally able to get his bearings and learn his heritage. This more or less reflects how JWJ himself felt about the city before it turned into a "one hundred percent cracker town" by the 1930s.

http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/64/the-autobiography-of-an-ex-colored-man/1152/chapter-5/
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

FlaBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2017, 04:09:35 PM »
I mean, why do you think they idiotically named their local university the University of South Florida ? ? ?

I don't follow, RG. Not only is USF (arguably) in south Florida, it was the only state university in southern part of the state when it was opened and named. And I don't think it was named by the City of Tampa.

Perhaps it should've been named USWF - but then again, maybe UNF should've been named UNEF.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other about Tampa having a chip on its shoulder - but if you want to sustain your argument, I think you're going to need better evidence!

The Board of Regents named it USF, not the city of Tampa. I don't even think it was technically in Tampa at that time. However, USF was the fourth state university behind UF, FSU, and FAMU, and was founded only eight years following the founding of FSU in 1948 from the Florida State Women's College. They should have created a naming system similar to North Carolina, Texas, or California, and named it the University of Florida-Tampa (UFT) instead of the directional college names which became tricky after awhile.

Tacachale

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6144
Re: The Country's Largest Television Markets
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2017, 04:28:37 PM »
I mean, why do you think they idiotically named their local university the University of South Florida ? ? ?

I don't follow, RG. Not only is USF (arguably) in south Florida, it was the only state university in southern part of the state when it was opened and named. And I don't think it was named by the City of Tampa.

Perhaps it should've been named USWF - but then again, maybe UNF should've been named UNEF.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other about Tampa having a chip on its shoulder - but if you want to sustain your argument, I think you're going to need better evidence!

The Board of Regents named it USF, not the city of Tampa. I don't even think it was technically in Tampa at that time. However, USF was the fourth state university behind UF, FSU, and FAMU, and was founded only eight years following the founding of FSU in 1948 from the Florida State Women's College. They should have created a naming system similar to North Carolina, Texas, or California, and named it the University of Florida-Tampa (UFT) instead of the directional college names which became tricky after awhile.

The locals' suggestion was "Tampa Bay University of Florida". There were a bunch of other bad names, but at least the others weren't so confusing. If it wasn't the first expansion school it never would've been named "South Florida".



http://www.thedailystampede.com/2011/8/24/2381670/heres-why-its-the-university-of-south-florida
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?