Transit Oriented Development Workshop coming in August

[southerngirl]

WHY OH WHY didn't I see this before??    It would have been nice to have someone from the Jackson Square neighborhood be there in order to hear more about the city's plans and perhaps be able to ask questions of someone other than Steve Cissel (developer).

Grrrrrrr.

Will someone please help us and post details about what was said?  Esp. about Jackson Square?

[JeffreyS]

WHY OH WHY didn't I see this before??    It would have been nice to have someone from the Jackson Square neighborhood be there in order to hear more about the city's plans and perhaps be able to ask questions of someone other than Steve Cissel (developer).

Grrrrrrr.

Will someone please help us and post details about what was said?  Esp. about Jackson Square?

We need to find a way to make better use of the Calender.  When use post a new topic you can do so from the calender or when you post a new topic you can link to calender but not when you reply.  No one uses the calender and maybe we never will.

[uptowngirl]

Is this different than the Urban Core Planning District Community Visioning? They are meeting tonihgt at 6-9PM and the topic is Transportation and Connectivity @Brentwood Community Center.

[Coolyfett]

Lets us know how things went!!!

[thelakelander]

The meeting was a good one for understanding the what a TOD really is.  The first speaker represented Reconnecting America (http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/).  I felt pretty good inside to see them answer questions about TOD and mass transit that validates the things we've been saying on this site.  These include:

1. BRT has not had as much success as rail in attracting quality TODs because of flexibility issues.

2. The best reason to go with BRT over rail revolves around cheaper implementation costs.  However, cheap BRT systems struggle to attract TODs.

3. Dedicated Busways can attract TODs to a degree, but its better to go ahead and go with rail because dedicated busways cost just as much to build.  Plus their O&M costs are higher.

4. He also mentioned that TODs should be integrated with the surrounding communities (connectivity).  Instead of being isolated TODs, they should become a place that better connects the surrounding area to mass transit and a mix of uses.

The outlook of the speaker from DC definately backed sentiment on this site.  Hopefully, JTA does a good job of making sure BRT and Commuter rail lines complement each other instead of competing head-to-head with one another.

As for the developers, Carlton Jones spoke briefly about Bay Street Station, Kings Avenue Station and the Laura Street Station.  They plan to sell off individual components of the Bay Street Plan to hotel, retail and theater operators.  It sounded like it would be a while before this one got off the ground.  However, one of the partners in his group has connections to a streetcar supplier and they are pushing to get a line running between the Prime Osborn and Hyatt.  Hopefully JTA can take advantage to get a starter line up and running soon.

Steve Cissel represented the Jackson Square group.  He mentioned he represented a development group that was doing some work out of Orlando.  This is something I'll have to look up to see how their past projects have turned out.  He said that they were working with the community to make sure it fit into the surrounding area.  Ock mentioned that the railroad would favor closing the River Oaks crossing, but there was no discussion that followed after his comment.

During my presentation (Integrating TODs into existing neighborhoods), I used the Jackson Square plan to illustrate how bringing the buildings up to Philips Highway would create strong pedestrian connectivity along the entire Philips Highway corridor.  The graphic (which has been shown on this site) really applied to the conceptual strip shopping center sketched across the street from the development and not the Jackson Square apartment layout. 

Not realizing I was talking about building setbacks in the city as a whole, he attempted to explain that what was shown was the best plan possible and that in theory I was right, but in reality it was not possible because of utility easements, etc.  However, he did state that the plan was not finalized.  He also had some great graphics showing what could be built under the existing zoning and how the Jackson Square project was a reduction in development density that better fit with the surrounding community.  If we had time to sit down in private, I'm sure I could change his mind on the front setback issue. 

[brainstormer]

It sounds like a great deal of positive discussion took place.  The reconnecting website is really interesting...although a lot of information to process!  I can't wait for things to start happening around here.  Keep up the good work guys. 

[southerngirl]

Steve Cissel represented the Jackson Square group.  He mentioned he represented a development group that was doing some work out of Orlando.  This is something I'll have to look up to see how their past projects have turned out.  He said that they were working with the community to make sure it fit into the surrounding area.  Ock mentioned that the railroad would favor closing the River Oaks crossing, but there was no discussion that followed after his comment.

If by "working with the community to make sure it fits into the surrounding area" he means "host a meeting with neighbors, after which you don't work in a cooperative way to address any of their traffic and noise concerns," then sure, he's working with the neighborhood.

Don't believe a word out of this guy's mouth or his little buddy Paul Harden's either, about the "working with the neighborhood" bit. He's maneuvering to get every inch of his 18 acres packed with six-story buildings -- without providing the required parking (check the PUD -- they plan to provide 1/2 the parking req'd), setbacks, greenspace and without concern for all of the train noise and traffic, not to mention light, that will bounce right back into the small neighborhoods nearby.

He's a smooth talker -- I'll be interested to hear what you find out about his other development's success near Orlando.

And, many many thanks for the report on the meeting. The neighbors around the area around Jackson Square aren't trying to kill progress, we're just asking that everyone involved in decision making stop for a moment and consider the impact this massive development is going to have on the homes and families that already live in and have established that area as one of Jacksonville's truly great neighborhoods.

[tufsu1]

Good summaryu Lake...I did not have the time today

As for Jackson Square, Steve Cissel showed a visual of what the current zoning would allow on the site....and then what they were asking for in the PUD....the second one was much less intense.

I think the partners in the Orlando projects are Cypress Realty...maybe that's what CVRI is.

[thelakelander]

I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve.  Its pretty powerful.

[Ocklawaha]

From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.

The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."

During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.

I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:

"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."

EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...

SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.

The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!

Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.

Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.

OCKLAWAHA

[civil42806]

From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.

The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."

During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.

I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:

"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."

EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...

SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.

The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!

Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.

Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.

OCKLAWAHA

But aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?

[tufsu1]

I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve.  Its pretty powerful.

I have them....but am having trouble adding the pics into this post....I admit to not being all that computer savvy...how about a step-by-step for dummies

[thelakelander]

Assuming they are jpegs...

1. Upload the images from your hard drive to an online photo host.  You can do this for free at www.photobucket.com.

2. To add the images to your post, copy and paste the image's URL address into your post.

3. Then add [ img ]http://in front and[ /img ] behind the cut and pasted URL address.  Make sure there are no blank spaces between any of the characters...(for example [ img ] should be [img  )

4. Click "post" and the image should show up.

[Ocklawaha]

But aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?

Thanks for the comment/fear there Civil. (I'm not making light of the word FEAR, as the city has every right to be afraid of that project due to pa, st blunders).

The REAL story on the Skyway is that expansion shouldn't cost more then $15-30 Million a mile MAX. I have recent (last week) talks with builders that say 15 is more realistic. Except for the Hotel block, we can scrap the side walls and elevated tub that it runs in. We go with simple twin beams like Disney, with a center steel grid catwalk for emergencys and repair.

Most of the original expense was on the very fine state-of-the-art computer control system, "war room" or NASA style control system. Signaling, owning the rights to the center cars which were property of Bombarider, and lots of support systems built in just-in-case the thing ever became regional. None of this part should ever have to be built again, it's already in place and will last 50-100 years.

So for any expansion, we are talking simple twin concrete beams, and station costs only. The station costs could be split between projects or absorbed by Commuter Rail.

Hope this helps.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Another major cost was the segment crossing the river and the fact that the original peoplemover system was rebuilt.  It also would not hurt to drop it down to grade in areas where this can be done (like in San Marco to Atlantic Blvd, after it crosses the tracks.  Small extensions in certain areas would be significantly cheaper than the $84 million/mile number we typically run with.