Breathing Life back into the Jacksonville Landing

[77danj7]

As stated a few times already Stephen's idea about a market would be amazing!  As I have lived in Springfield for coming up on five years now I can clearly see how beneficial this would be to all of us as well as all of the "newcomers" who are moving into the core.
I know that my family for one would be frequenting the landing even more often than we do now.

[stephendare]

thanks man.   same here!   (Love fresh Tuna)

[Steve]

The parking thing is a little bit of an issue - national chains require it, and for a suburbanite, parking is difficult (notice I didn't say 'not available').  We are competing against St Johns Town Center, which has a sea of free parking.  The landing will never have that.

As far as the signage thing, that was fixed in 2002 or 2003, but it took Starbucks putting a protruding siign on their Forsyth and Main property to wake everyone up that they were allowed (this was related no only to hard headedness in Public Works, but also sign contractors misleading retailers as far as what is required).

St John's Town Center has been a success because of the retailers entering the market, not because of St Johns Town Center itself.  Remember, the expansion of Regency Square in the 80's was one of the final death knell's in downtown retail.  Now, the Dillard's is turing into a clearance center.  See what 20 years can do.  I think it would be VERY interesting to see SJTC in 20 years.

To me one of the main issues is the construction - the most valuable space is where the food courts and their seating is.  Think about this - the most valuable space in the building is where $4 lunches are sold, and remember, the seating area is not leasable (only the little closets where the food is sold at).  This we can't blame Sleiman for.

Now, until the market improves, there won't be a lot of action.  The Peyton Administration is solely to blame for this, for being very poor at negotiations.  The dragged this thing on SO long that they missed the market (did they really think the market was going to stay like that)?

Now, there are some thing they can do to help - first, start with the list in the article, particularly the look and feel of the place.  Second, come up with some sort of parking thing - even if people have to pay short term, partner with a garage to put a big sign on it (the 9 story one that is empty after 5 is a good start).  That wouldn't be ideal, but it would take the parking situation from an F to a C

[Doctor_K]

St John's Town Center has been a success because of the retailers entering the market, not because of St Johns Town Center itself.  Remember, the expansion of Regency Square in the 80's was one of the final death knell's in downtown retail.  Now, the Dillard's is turing into a clearance center.  See what 20 years can do.  I think it would be VERY interesting to see SJTC in 20 years.

Not that I'm outright disagreeing here, but wouldn't the SJTC of 20 years hence and Regency Square of today kind of be an apples-to-oranges comparison? 

Since newer ways of thinking and planning like smart growth and new urbanism are more overt of an issue now than they were in the 80s (if they even existed as fleshed-out in the 80s as they are now?), even if Jax remains slow to adapt to such thinking, is it possible that the SJTC could remain as viable a commercial entity then as it seems to be now?

That, coupled with the trend of 'urban' villages/'town centers' (we've all hashed the validity of the term in other threads, but I use it here loosely anyway) sprouting up all over the place (ok - the Southside), and nothing but mid-density residential going up as well? 

Normally I'd tend to agree with you, in theory, about the "let's see what such-and-such looks like in 20 years" argument; but at the same time, a lot can happen between now and then that could make the SJTC (and let's not overlook the successes in their own rights of others like Oak Leaf, River City Marketplace, and however many others there are now, too) a different animal from the Regency comparison.

Or am I just hoping for too much and talking out of my arse?

[thelakelander]

Imo, SJTC will ultimately be as successful as the neighborhood around it.  All the land planning in the world won't help if the surrounding area goes down the tubes or doesn't remain the popular place to be in Jacksonville.  My pick is that some significant redevelopment and a change in tenant mix will happen eventually, because the housing being constructed around the center is pretty substandard and the infrastructure in that general area is poorly laid out.

[stephendare]

Janice is online right now.

And she wants to reiterate that parking is a major problem for the Landing mainly for the purposes of the crime perception.

People need to be able to see their cars from the Landing, she reminded me.  The Suburban customers are still kindof scared about the idea of crime.

She loved and agreed with all the ideas and the criticisms, expecially with the statement that the Landing has its back to Downtown, and is sending over a rendering of one of the scenarios where The Landing could interact with Downtown even if they dont cut through the building.

[Doctor_K]

Awesome!  Would you be able to post it for all?

[Driven1]

imo, the landing ain't doing crap for sometime.  the local economics don't support it.

[stephendare]

[Driven1]

cool...can you pull up the renderings from 2005 that were supposed to happen back then?  i loved those.

[Downtown Dweller]

Downtown does have a ton of parking, its just unmarked.  However, in the Landing's case, they believe they need a certain number of dedicated spaces to attract national chains that demand dedicated parking.  This would basically mean taking a garage somewhere and dedicating all of its parking spaces to the Landing, as opposed to having general public parking or leasing a certain amount of spaces to nearby offices, etc.  The closest city owned public parking garage is the Water Street garage, but its separated from the Landing by a few blocks of surface parking, making the walk between the two structures undesirable.  A solution to this problem could be a streetcar line down Water from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt.  While the streetcar line would bring other benefits, it would also directly tie in several garages and parking lots with the Landing, Omni, TU Center, Hyatt and the Convention Center, thus enabling them to take advantage of what's already in place.  However, I don't see people here seriously thinking outside of the box and moving forward with something before Sleiman's garage goes vertical.

Funny I just got back from a small town in CA that has national chains right downtown without any dedicated parking...In fact the options of stores and eateries in this small town of 58K BLOWS Jacksonville away! There must be something besides parking holding downtown and the landing back.

[thelakelander]

What's the name of the town?  Does it have rail transit, is it dense or a part of a larger metropolitan area?

[Downtown Dweller]

San Luis Obsipo, it is 58K pop, with a college so most likely doubles in pop once a year. It is a stand alone city (although five cities and Atascadero, Morro Bay, Paso Robles are all very close). They are very "anti chain" and it took them about 10 years to get a home depot! I took pics of downtown, including the new proposed "China Town" developement area, and of course "Bubble Gum Alley" I just need to give them to Stephen. This is the same town that had HORRENDOUS vagrant and homeless feeding issues downtown just five years ago, a new day center outside the city limits, and a few loitering/cruising laws have created a booming downtown center.


BTW the biggest employer in SLO is the State of California and the county itself (about one hour north of Santa Barbara)


Oops... they have Amtrak, but no "metro rail", they do have a pretty aggresive bus and van pool system, and great bike lanes on every single road.

[stephendare]

That Day Center.

It would change things dynamically here.

Janice Lowe seemed jazzed about a market concept a la Pike's Place.

It would be easy to implement, and wouldnt require the total restructuring of the Landing in order to turn into a positive that faces both downtown and the river.

[Downtown Dweller]

I did not take a pic of the day center, but I can maybe ask someone to do so... I'll see maybe I can map it too