Author Topic: Duval County Map 1898  (Read 8327 times)

RattlerGator

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2016, 10:56:03 AM »
Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

Hmmm . . . looks like local mythology bites the dust yet again.

Tacachale

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2016, 11:26:56 AM »
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

That's what I see Tach... I see a river clearly too deep and swift for cattle to wade across particularly at the narrow points near downtown.  Perhaps the shallow point for crossing was farther upstream but it still does not seem likely.  Do cattle ford rivers by swimming?  Could "cow" or "Vaca" or "waca" be slang or a descriptive term for the type of boat used in a ferry or crossing?

Anything's possible. It could be that the English name was a total misunderstanding of an Indian or Spanish name. We do know that people did cross there as it was the crossing of the British King's Road, which was maintained into the Second Spanish period and the American period. However, cows can indeed swim, so it's possible they swam them over instead of fording them, and just used "Ford" for what the Creeks called "Crossing"/"Boat Crossing".

Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2016, 11:30:00 AM »
Hmmm... Water too deep?  Ferry or Ford the cattle across by boat...



In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

stephendare

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2016, 03:30:44 PM »
http://www.westlinnhistory.org/West_Linn_Historical_Society/History/Entries/2015/5/6_Crossing_the_River_-_Before_There_Were_Bridges.html

obviously, Bridge Troll. 

The Bartram Journals specifically called it the Cow Ford Ferry line.  The river was still shallow enough that the current wasn't too strong to make the straightest line impossible, and it took an experienced person with that part of the river to cross it.

Surely no one thought that the cows were being walked across.?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:04:29 PM by stephendare »
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Tacachale

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2016, 03:38:58 PM »
http://www.westlinnhistory.org/West_Linn_Historical_Society/History/Entries/2015/5/6_Crossing_the_River_-_Before_There_Were_Bridges.html

obviously, Bridge Troll. 

The Bartram Journals specifically called it the Cow Ford Ferry line.  The river was still shallow enough that the current wasn't too strong to make the straightest line possible, and it took an experienced person with that part of the river to cross it.

Surely no one thought that the cows were being walked across.?

Well, it's what "ford" means.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

stephendare

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2016, 04:12:30 PM »
It does. And includes shallow boating as indicated by the pictures.

Its why Ive kept referencing the name of the  ferry boat line in every discussion we've ever had about this subject.

Lol.  Well that would explain a lot.

Except of course that at low tide the river was fordable by wading it.  Deepening the channel was one of the first acts of the incorporated city of Jacksonville.

Like Hogans Creek, the shape of the waterway has changed dramatically over the years.

Trout River and Sisters Creek have remained more original than the St. John's or Hogans.  Both due to human tinkering.  By the late 1880s, the river was deeper and consequently narrower at points than it had been earlier in the century.

Here is a mid 1880s image of the cows crossing the river from the Florida Memory Collection:


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/39022
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:14:52 PM by stephendare »
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David

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2017, 11:04:56 PM »
Regarding the map: I like the ad for "Fire Insurance" at the bottom. The great fire of 1901 was an inside job!


BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 05:29:30 AM »
Regarding the map: I like the ad for "Fire Insurance" at the bottom. The great fire of 1901 was an inside job!


The ads are awesome...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

spuwho

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 07:54:32 AM »
From some of history books I have read, the St Johns current was not very swift until they dredged the river after the Civil War.

The southbank was somewhat swampy and it gradually entered the river with the main original channel closer to the northbank.

In fact the first dredging increased the current so much it caused erosion on St Johns Bluff and parts of it fell in until they installed some rip rap to stop it.

Many think this is when the earthen remains of Ft Caroline were washed away.

So its possible at the time cattle could wade through the shallow parts of the southbank and then swim the narrow channel. With the currents so slow at the time, there was little threat to losing them.

When I lived in Chicago I read that they used to bring cattle over Wolf Point on the Chicago River. If you saw Wolf Point today you would say its not possible. But the currents back then were very slow and the banks very gradual. All the modifications by man have changed it so much its hard to tell just how rural it used to be.

Adam White

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 08:25:14 AM »
What's the deal with Cecilville? It's up near Hidden Hills, yet there's no way it's Hidden Hills. Is it an area that was platted out but never developed? I grew up near there and don't think there are any streets laid out in a grid pattern.
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camarocane

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2017, 08:53:39 AM »
Apparently Chamblin's is on the site of an old boarding school. "The Froebel Academy"

lastdaysoffla

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2017, 01:56:01 PM »
I read in my research about a hand drawn map of the Mandarin area by Harriet Beecher Stowe. I think it was included in her book Palmetto Leaves. I have yet to pick up the book or find a picture of said map online. Anybody got a lead?

acme54321

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2017, 09:05:50 PM »
What's the deal with Cecilville? It's up near Hidden Hills, yet there's no way it's Hidden Hills. Is it an area that was platted out but never developed? I grew up near there and don't think there are any streets laid out in a grid pattern.

Yeah there are a number of areas on the map like that.  Check out Bayard.