Inside the Park View Inn

[stephendare]

Often times Name and Use can be decieving.  For example, we are still identifying the property as a hotel, when in fact it hasnt been used as one in a decade.

The good thing is the city directories also state the use of the property at the time the specific directory was published.  We may refer to the Park View as a hotel, but it would be listed as "vacant" in the latest directories.

I think I remember that there were listings of 'vacant' on the cross directories that list street by street.  Although again, name and use can be decieving.  The space Im leasing right now is presently functioning mostly as 'storage' rather than 'theater'.  Its just an FYI in case the listings are ambiguous, something I have often found.

[stephendare]

the defensiveness was in crying about not being 'allowed' to post the maps.  Whatever that is supposed to mean, its defensive and a little bizarre.

Cause and Effect.  Check post 64, which had nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,197.msg22461.html#msg22461

It put into perspective how long ago the time periods discussed actually are.  They span from 1884 to 1929.  A lot has happened since then.

But really, what else to expect whenever anyone disagrees with DP.  I really should have known better than to inject any opposing report.

[stephendare]

According the 1913 map above, The Jacksonville Gas Company was the last name before it became auto oriented. It appears to have been Citizens Gas and Electric before that, and Jacksonville Gas Works before that.

So it wasnt really a gassification plant after 1913?

And if Robert Van Winkel is correct in the detailed property history provided by the first round of Environmental Cleanup when the Hotel was built, and the final 20 years were producing some other substance, that would have meant that the property wasnt necessarily gassifying after 1893.

Your map begins in 1884, was the site gassifying before that year?

[thelakelander]

I think I remember that there were listings of vacant on the cross directories.  Although again, name and use can be decieving.  The space Im leasing right now is presently functioning mostly as 'storage' rather than 'theater'.  Its just an FYI in case the listings are ambiguous, something I have often found.

With Sanborn maps on different projects I've worked on, the combination of name, site plan and city directory normally fishes out the concern you bring up.  For example, a name can be decieving by its self, but new silos showing up on the sanborn, that corresponds with a complementing use in the city directory can be a good starting point to determine what a property was used for at a specific point in history.

It put into perspective how long ago the time periods discussed actually are.  They span from 1884 to 1929.  A lot has happened since then.

Correct.  However, the topic of the discussion centered around the Park View.  The Sanborns fall in line by giving us all a chance to see what has sat on this specific property over the last 100 years, which is vital to the contamination discussion.  The following post came across as trying to devalue the facts posted on the post above.

But really, what else to expect whenever anyone disagrees with DP.  I really should have known better than to inject an opposing opinion.

It wasn't so much about having another opinion.  What was posted was facts.  

In any event, we are beginning to go away from the goal of finding a solution.  Perhaps its time for us all to get back on track.

[stephendare]

Agreed, Lake.  I certainly could care less about the personalities involved.  The important thing is the development of the park and its value to the city.

DP, I am quite interested in whatever facts you have, as I have repeatedly stated.  I certainly hope that this is your interest as well.

I think my objection is this rush to judgement, and making self fulfilling pronouncements that end up being counterproductive to EVERYONE.

As the last few posts have illuminated, we are already closer to factual truth simpy by determining the actual years of usage or potential years.

[downtownparks]

Not sure what year it stopped being used. It looks like in the 1913 map there is only storage, so its use as a gasificaiton plant may have ended a little before that.

Thats where city directory's would be handy.

Im not sure when it started as a plant. The Sanborns dont cover that area before 1884.

I do know that people were worried about it exploding during the great fire in 1901. It was written about in Acres of Ashes.

Also, you do realize nobody is blaming the owner for the contamination, right? He was just unfortunate enough to have bought a dirty parcel, just as have Hionides, Vanhorn, SRG, Meeks and just about any other investor. It happens.

My biggest issue with the owner is his lack of ability/willingness to keep his building clean and secure.

[stephendare]

Not sure what year it stopped being used. It looks like in the 1913 map there is only storage, so its use as a gasificaiton plant may have ended a little before that.

Thats where city directory's would be handy.

Im not sure when it started as a plant. The Sanborns dont cover that area before 1884.

I do know that people were worried about it exploding during the great fire in 1901. It was written about in Acres of Ashes.

Also, you do realize nobody is blaming the owner for the contamination, right? He was just unfortunate enough to have bought a dirty parcel, just as have Hionides, Vanhorn, SRG, Meeks and just about any other investor. It happens.

My biggest issue with the owner is his lack of ability/willingness to keep his building clean and secure.

thanks, and I agree with you, Lake's idea of the City Directories may turn out being useful.

You would think that someone would have the presence of mind to get those damned things online sometime.

Yes I do remember the passage from Acres of Ashes.  (and I think you can read the passage online at the florida history site.---any idea where it is exactly?)

[downtownparks]

One other note. Back when I was really heavily researching this, I wondered if "the Jacksonville gas works" was ever a publicly owned utility. My thoughts on it were that if the city had been responsible for the contamination, then more than likly they would be responsible for the clean up, similar to how dry cleaner clean ups are funded.

However, I was told by Joel McEachen (who has extensive records on this) that the gas plant, in all of its various names were privately owned. I also wondered if the company who bought the Jax Gas Works was still around. Again, if they were, perhaps they could be made responsible for the clean up. However, that was also not the case. The company went out of business, and was not bought.

[thelakelander]

Here's a general description of the creek from the US Army Corps website:

Hogan’s Creek origin is in the Springfield community. Wayne W. Wood in his 1989 Jacksonville’s Architectural Heritage: Landmarks for the Future (Jacksonville, FL) described that in about 1870, Springfield had been named because of a spring of good water located in a field near Broad and West Fourth Streets. This spring would have been near the headwaters of Hogan’s Creek.

Richard A. Martin, in his 1972 book The City Makers (Convention Press, Inc., Jacksonville, FL), described changes made along the creek. To control mosquitoes and associated diseases, efforts were made in the late 1800s to drain marshy areas along the creek. To help with flood protection, the creek was dredged at about the same time.

Sewage problems adversely affecting the creek have also been noted over the years. The creek has also served as a firebreak. Very little of the Great Fire that destroyed the City of Jacksonville in 1901 passed beyond the creek.

Industrial land use activities have occurred near the mouth of the creek. A shipyard used to exist at the mouth of the creek. Coffee has been ground near the mouth of Hogan’s Creek since about 1906. In this early time period, coffee beans were brought in directly by ship to docks at the mouth of the creek and unloaded. The coffee beans would be ground and placed into jars. The jars of coffee would then be placed on railroad cars for distribution to points north.

The creek is shown on Corps of Engineer drawings dating back to 1926. Wood reported that in 1929 Jacksonville architect Henry John Klutho designed the balustrades and bridges along the creek in the Springfield area. The current study would review water quality problems associated with Hogan’s creek and develop recommendations, including for the creation of a greenway and littoral areas alongside the creek. Flooding problems would also be reviewed. The creek physically runs for about a mile and a half ending at the St. Johns River, an American Heritage River. The Hogan’s Creek basin incorporates approximately 2000 acres.

http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/pd/pdpf_studies/Hogans_Creek/hogan_creek.htm

[stephendare]

One other note. Back when I was really heavily researching this, I wondered if "the Jacksonville gas works" was ever a publicly owned utility. My thoughts on it were that if the city had been responsible for the contamination, then more than likly they would be responsible for the clean up, similar to how dry cleaner clean ups are funded.

However, I was told by Joel McEachen (who has extensive records on this) that the gas plant, in all of its various names were privately owned. I also wondered if the company who bought the Jax Gas Works was still around. Again, if they were, perhaps they could be made responsible for the clean up. However, that was also not the case. The company went out of business, and was not bought.

Like the phone companies and the electric companies, almost none of the things we think of as 'public utilities' were owned by the municipalities. 

It was really in the late 40s and 50s that Municipalities in the US took the serious initiative to regulate or operate the things necessary for the life of the city.

My conversations about these properties are 10 years older than the one we are presently having, and were had with several old timers who are no longer around (or in Lisa Neary's case in the process of dying), but they were closer in time to the last cleanup of the property.

According to the conversations going around then, the real contamination was coming from the respess Grimes building.  There was suspected contamination under the hotel, but no one had done any testing to verify it.

And enviro cleanups are not the end of the world, there are mitigating funds to take care of the cost.  It doesnt benefit the landowner to pretend that cleanup doesnt exist, unless they are first time single property landowners who don't know any better.

Again, the missing information is in Robert's latest round of testing.   I havent gotten a look at the report as it kind of dropped off my radar.  But this issue has come up so many times over the past 8 years, that we really are doing a public service if we can get it settled in public. 

Either way.

[downtownparks]

One more bit of info, unrelated to the PVI, We did was we asked JU to do some testing on the creek. I presented these finding to the DEP as well as Congresswoman Brown when Doug, myself and a couple of others were asking her to push harder for funding on the ACoE project.

Here are the results

Results

   Water samples were analyzed for the following metals: copper, chromium, cadmium, manganese, lead, nickel, and zinc.  Cadmium was the only metal that was found in the water and was very low in concentration (about 0.02 ppm).

  Copper, zinc, and especially lead, are found to be exceptionally concentrated in the sediments.  Included are the results for a sediment sample taken from the banks of the St. Johns River near the boat dock at Jacksonville University.

Both cadmium and nickel in the environment are dangerous but manganese is not very harmful.  The lead levels are very high and would be harmful to bottom feeding organisms.

[stephendare]

One more bit of info, unrelated to the PVI, We did was we asked JU to do some testing on the creek. I presented these finding to the DEP as well as Congresswoman Brown when Doug, myself and a couple of others were asking her to push harder for funding on the ACoE project.

Here are the results

Results

   Water samples were analyzed for the following metals: copper, chromium, cadmium, manganese, lead, nickel, and zinc.  Cadmium was the only metal that was found in the water and was very low in concentration (about 0.02 ppm).

  Copper, zinc, and especially lead, are found to be exceptionally concentrated in the sediments.  Included are the results for a sediment sample taken from the banks of the St. Johns River near the boat dock at Jacksonville University.

Both cadmium and nickel in the environment are dangerous but manganese is not very harmful.  The lead levels are very high and would be harmful to bottom feeding organisms.

All of those have medical uses as well.

Is that where these contaminants are originated?

[downtownparks]

I asked my DEP contact about the results, and he said

With Lead, our most conservative number for probably effect and threshold effect are 130 mg/kg (ppm) and 36 mg/kg (ppm) respectively

and

when I asked about the Confederate Park remediation, and followed up on the other industrial contaminants found in the study I was told (Info dated from 06/2006)

he City's consultant started drilling an additional set of assessment wells this week, you should be seeing a large drilling rig onsite for the next couple of weeks.
 
Need to see the results of the sampling and discuss internally for ideas, no initial thoughts on Nickel and Cadmium, but will try to think of possible sources..  Anything in the historical studies for Springfield that would suggest possible industries with these constituents.  The tanning industries did use these as part of some types of processes.

[downtownparks]

Also of note, This was from August of 2006

We are continuing the investigation of the contamination resulting from the past operations of the coal gasification plant formerly located adjacent to Confederate Park.  Additional borings were performed at the request of FDEP within the last 2 months and our consultant is currently evaluating the newly collected data and will be submitting their findings.  To fully assess the site, private commercial properties in the surrounding area may need to be assessed and it is my understanding that the State is currently pushing the owners to perform the necessary work.    Once the investigation has been completed we will be better able to determine what the options are for addressing the contamination and estimate a schedule for the cleanup of the Park.   The other end of the creek, in the vicinity of 6th Street and Boulevard, is part of the Jacksonville Ash Sites and under the jurisdiction of USEPA.  We are currently waiting on their issuance of the record of decision so we can move forward with remediation of the affected parcels.

[downtownparks]

Thank you for your email concerning Hogan Creek and Confederate Park.  Here is the status of various projects affecting this area.

 

Flood Reduction:  A project to reduce flooding along Hogan Creek has been underway for several years.  The initial study identified contamination issues in the creek that would have made channel dredging too costly for the flood reduction benefit gained.  However, flood reduction was gained by constructing stormwater treatment ponds upstream within the watershed.  Flood reduction will also be gained with the replacement of the Bay Street Bridge and channel widening at the mouth of the creek and the river.  This project is scheduled to commence construction in January 2007.

 

Eco-Restoration:  The USACOE project will be a good first at restoring Hogan Creek.  The city as a funding partner has committed to pay all costs associated with required contamination remediation/removal in the project footprint.  We look forward to this project being reactivated by the corps in the future.

 

Hogan Creek Greenway:  Walking Path along the creek including greening landscape—Design is underway with estimated bid letting in May 2007.

 

St. Johns River and Tributary TMDL Cleanup:  The city is obligated to reduce pollutants entering the main stem of the St. Johns River and several tributaries, including Hogan Creek.  Development of a Basin Management Action Plan (BMAP) is underway now.  Funding for this project is forecast in the proposed 2006-2011 Capital Improvement Plan.  We are currently grading proposals form consultants to provide professional service associated with this work including, updating the master stormwater management plan, updating the flood insurance rate maps, and performing water quality modeling to identify cost effective solutions to meet our TMDL (pollutant reduction) allocation for urban stormwater runoff entering the St. Johns River.

 

River Accord:  Recently, the mayor, together with partners who will invest in the future health of the river, announced the formation of the River Accord, a 10-year, $700 million program to begin restoring the health of the Lower St. Johns River Basin.  Details can be found at:  http://www.coj.net/Mayor/River+Accord/default.htm

 

A project to address the specific cleanup issues throughout the reaches of Hogan Creek, or any other similarly contaminated creek, is not underway.  However, through our current NPDES permit activities, we are aggressively identifying and causing removal of point sources of pollution entering our drainage system and ultimately the St. Johns River and its tributaries.  The City committed over $75 million of BJP funding for phasing out failed septic tanks throughout the city.  JEA is also executing an aggressive program to rehabilitate aging sewer lines.