Inside the Park View Inn

[stephendare]

When/where has anyone, aside from the absentee owner and Stephen, said there wasn't contamination?

This was how this conversation was struck up again, DP.  It seemed you wanted to get some information, which I hope I have provided.

Hopefully we can let the facts finish up the subject.  In any case, I certainly have no ill will towards fish, flesh, fowl, flora or fauna on this issue.

[thelakelander]

I don't think its a us vs. them issue with the Park View.  People are just frustrated with the condition of the structure and lack of progress.  From a development standpoint, there's nothing you, me or anyone else posting can do to keep big developers from doing their homework.  I can't speak for the others but I vividly remember environmental issues being one of the reasons that project did not move forward.

Exactly.  Although from what I remember, the homework so far has been to ask community members rather than testing.

Any developer that would take a common resident's word over actually doing their own due diligence is not a serious developer, imo.  Personally, I'd have issues pouring a ton of money in the site, regardless of where the most contamination is.  Seriously, take a look at it and its surroundings.

1. Sanborn Maps and old city directories indicate the site was home to a coal gasification plant.  That's not up for debate.  The record of this can be easily proven with a quick trip to the top of the public library.

2. The building directly to the south was originally a car dealership with an auto repair shop in the back, dating back to the 1920s.

3. The building directly to the east was a paint company (or something of the sort) at one time.

4. Hogans Creek - it has its own set of issues that extend far beyond the corner of Main & Orange.

All in all, these are serious red flags for anyone who's going to invest money in that area.  As an investor, I would care less of what the owner's opinion is of the site.  I would want to see the documents and at the very least hire my own environmental engineer to conduct a Phase I report, before dropping a dime into the site. 

To me, the issue is not whether the old hotel site is the source of contamination.  The owner's word is no more credible than anyone here without presenting documents backing up his claim.  Nevertheless,  everyone agrees that the ground under Orange Street has serious problems.  Therefore, there should be no argument back and forth about who's right, who's wrong and who should listen to who.  Everyone should have their heads huddled trying to find a way to clean up the entire area, because no one is going to seriously invest in any of those buildings until that's done. 

[stephendare]

To me, the issue is not whether the old hotel site is the source of contamination.  The owner's word is no more credible than anyone here without presenting documents backing up his claim.  Nevertheless,  everyone agrees that the ground under Orange Street has serious problems.  Therefore, there should be no argument back and forth about who's right, who's wrong and who should listen to who.  Everyone should have their heads huddled trying to find a way to clean up the entire area, because no one is going to seriously invest in any of those buildings until that's done.

Thank you my brother lake.
You told it like it is.

[downtownparks]

1884


1887


1891


1897


1913


1929

[stephendare]

also in 1884:



the statue of liberty begins being built

and the berlin conference commences:



The Berlin Conference (German: Kongokonferenz or "Congo Conference") of 1884–85 regulated European colonization and trade in Africa during the New Imperialism period, and coincided with Germany's sudden emergence as an imperial power. Called for by Portugal and organized by Otto von Bismarck, the first Chancellor of Germany, its outcome, the General Act of the Berlin Conference, is often seen as the formalization of the Scramble for Africa. The conference ushered in a period of heightened colonial activity on the part of the European powers, while simultaneously eliminating most existing forms of African autonomy and self-governance.

1929

Women Are Finally Declared Persons and Given Legal Status

Specifically the question was whether Section 24 of the British North America Act, 1867, included the possibility of women becoming senators: "The Governor General shall... summon qualified Persons to the Senate; and ... every Person so summoned shall become and be a Member of the Senate and a Senator."

Only men had been appointed to the senate thus far. For years, pressure had grown for women to be appointed to the Senate.

In Edwards v. Canada (Attorney General) [1930] S.C.R. 276, The Supreme Court of Canada ruled unanimously that women were not qualified to be senators. The stated grounds included:

    * the framers of the act, in 1867, could not have had it in mind to permit women senators, since women did not participate in politics at that time;
    * the act exclusively used the word he to refer to senators.

The women went to London, England, to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which was effectively Canada's highest court at that time. On October 18, 1929, the committee ruled that Canadian women were indeed persons and were competent to serve in the Senate. In their decision (Edwards v. Canada (Attorney General) [1930] A.C. 124 (P.C.)), the Privy Councilors called the exclusion of women from public office "a relic of days more barbarous than ours." Because the Judicial Council was a final court of appeal for the British Empire as a whole, this decision set a precedent for jurisdictions over the world. However, because the Council did not hear appeals from within the British Isles, the decision was non-precedental for the British House of Lords. The right of women to sit in the House of Lords remained a point of legal and political controversy long after.

Just a reminder: It is presently 2008

[downtownparks]

Oh, Im sorry. I guess Im not allowed to post the Sanborn images that Lake was talking about.

My bad.

[stephendare]

Oh, Im sorry. I guess Im not allowed to post the Sanborn images that Lake was talking about.

My bad.

?  I didnt think anyone questioned the history of the property, but rather the present condition.

Although now that you mention it, I do recall that the property wasnt used for gassification during the final 20 or 30 years of its use, but rather for the production of an asphalt like substance that wouldnt have produced the kind of pollution ascribed to a gassification plant.

[downtownparks]

Oh, cool. that should be easy to find records of then.

[stephendare]

I would think so.

Of course, you could call Robert and ask him.  I bet he and David have them.

[thelakelander]

There's no reason to jump on downtownparks for posting the sanborn maps.  That's not going to get us to the point where we can help find a solution.  I was going to go to the library tomorrow, print copies and post myself.  Anyway, they do illustrate why there should be concern for that general area.  On those alone, there's a gas plant and what appears to be two auto repair shops.  The information the sanborn maps show can be used to find out more about the Park View property and the surrounding properties.  Btw, ashalt-substance like plants aren't clean either.  The mention of this additional information should be a cause for more concern along Orange Street.  In any event, I'm combing the DEP's website right now for any reports they may have on Hogans Creek.

[thelakelander]

I would think so.

Of course, you could call Robert and ask him.  I bet he and David have them.

Better yet, I'll stop by the library tomorrow and check the city directories.  They'll reveal more than anyone living today will about what was on these properties at the time the directories were published.

[stephendare]

No one is jumping on DP, Lake.

His posts are always a little defensive, and he seems to be taking the whole matter personally, which makes it hard to have any different point of view from him.

As I said, I don't have a dog in this race, its not my land.

But for the sake of the neighborhood, I certainly hope that Robert is telling the truth since that will remove millions of dollars from the anticipated cost of cleaning the park and speed it right along.

There may be some merit in Van Horn's argument after all.

Lisa and Phil Neary did a whole lot of environmental work on Hogan's Creek.  In fact it was Phil that forced the hospital to stop dumping medical waste into the creek itself.

It would be odd if all the landowners are just simply liars.

[stephendare]

I would think so.

Of course, you could call Robert and ask him.  I bet he and David have them.

Better yet, I'll stop by the library tomorrow and check the city directories.  They'll reveal more than anyone living today will about what was on these properties at the time the directories were published.

Great idea!  Im pretty sure that the primary business was still listed in the 29 directories as well.
The property was used for gassification in the very distant past, according to Robert (and my memory of his explanation) probably before the turn of the century or shortly thereafter, but the use of the site converted over to a different material for some reason.

I don't know if the company name changed though, that would be something I would have to look up as well.

Btw, ashalt-substance like plants aren't clean either.  The mention of this additional information should be a cause for more concern along Orange Street.  In any event, I'm combing the DEP's website right now for any reports they may have on Hogans Creek.

Again, relying on memory, this is one of the things that had to be addressed in the cleanup of the property during the 70s

[downtownparks]

According the 1913 map above, The Jacksonville Gas Company was the last name before it became auto oriented. It appears to have been Citizens Gas and Electric before that, and Jacksonville Gas Works before that.

[stephendare]

Often times Name and Use can be decieving.  For example, we are still identifying the property as a hotel, when in fact it hasnt been used as one in a decade.