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Author Topic: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map  (Read 5272 times)

BridgeTroll

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2013, 01:24:07 PM »
Perhaps Garden guy is concerned about the essence of FBC which, by its very nature is a controlling entity; and this control, right in the midst of our urban core, a core which, by its very nature, should enjoy as much freedom as possible so that it might, through the efforts of all hard working and creative individuals in and near the core, emerge through the almost desolate landscape to a position of strength and vibrancy, a goal most of us appear to want for our urban core. 

Our urban core, through the natural process of adapting to changing technology and population growth, has suffered to partial desolation, has become wounded, weak, and dependent, as with a child.  Besides needing sacrifices from its guardians, a child needs the freedom to become independent, strong, and self-sustaining.   

Just as some guardians attempt, for their own selfish gain or comfort, to control and restrict their child so that it remains dependent and safe, so too it might be for some controlling entities in our urban core, those who gain monetary, physical, and/or spiritual comfort via the status quo.  Why should those in established physical or spiritual comfort seek change, or promote freedoms so that others can seek change?  The status quo is comfortable and safe for some, and if they are in positions of influence or control, why would they encourage real change?  Perhaps GG senses that money, wealth, and spiritual and physical comfort, goes hand in hand with power and influence; and therefore hand in hand with control, conservatism and the status quo. 

I suspect that GG is frustrated, and that he occasionally throws a rock in the general direction of the church, knowing that something is wrong, something is going on in that spiritual bulwark which is not good for the urban core.  Perhaps he cannot describe in detail the exact mechanism making up what he perceives as a threat to the urban core’s attempt to grow to a vibrant and self-sustaining powerhouse of independence, but he senses at least one direction from which the threat comes.

GG, along with some others, might be haunted by the question as to whether we want a dominate church surrounded by a weak and dependent urban core, or do we want a strong independent, free, and vibrant urban core which has a church within.  As for my opinion about the subject…. I’m still thinking.  Perhaps another beer might help clarify my thoughts.   


I think you give GG too much credit... his drive-byes are legendary... it is doubtful he will even read these responses..
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Redbaron616

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2013, 08:28:39 PM »
If you want downtown to boom, don't hand the job over to the city government. Sell the property to private enterprise and they will figure out how to make the land provide an income for them. It certainly worked in the past. Why is free enterprise despised and more government control and expenditures welcomed? The government spends at least twice or three times what the private sector would to obtain the same result.

BigBlackRod

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2013, 10:37:12 AM »
This is Roderick, who played "N'Della" in Jennifer's play, "Majigeen;" I'd like to thank you for this site. I have learned so much more about Black Jacksonville since I started checking this out. You need a bigger stage...

BrooklynSouth

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2013, 12:54:21 PM »
I live in 5 Points and I cherish whatever is left of the old downtown. And I wonder about people who don't mourn the lost glory of our city. But lately I feel the decline and dynamite-fueled response was due to the rise of new technology, not the result of greed or stupidity. The original downtowns of cities arose because that's where the ports were. Cities grow at bottlenecks of commerce, so if the ships had to dock downtown, then that's where all the trains, producers, manufacturers, banks, and insurers (all the employers) had to set up and so that's where everyone had to live. No one complained when the technologies of the steamship and train created a boom in downtown Jacksonville, but later technologies like highways created a bust that we are still dealing with. We should focus less on negative-nostalgia and more on our vision for how Jacksonville can take advantage of today's technologies to become a leader among cities.

The post-WWII period destroyed the natural monopoly of cities as centers of commerce. When did cargo ships get so large that the ports had to move closer to the ocean? When did the highway system pull cargo off of ships and onto trucks? When did cars become affordable for everyone to ride the new highways? Although it is an island of finance and luxury now, Manhattan was once mostly factories and wharves! After WWI, it had the same problems and the same responses Jacksonville had. We have already forgotten how by the 1970s New York City had become a worrying symbol of national failure. Robert Caro's famous 1974 book about New York City's famous dynamiter and builder Robert Moses was subtitled "The Fall of New York". Would anyone say today that New York City is "fallen"? The factories are gone, but the city grabbed hold of finance at the start of a global financial boom and has been reborn.

I think we need to step away from the nostalgia some times and the glamorous cities in our minds that never really existed except for an elite, lucky few. Cities were pretty filthy place for a long time. Would anyone like the paper factories to reopen downtown to dump stinky pollution into the air and river? Living away from the dirt and noise of the city was a dream-come-true for most. For better or worse, the factories are gone and downtown is now a very clean place ready for a fresh start fresh.

The rise of the information economy and technology in general have given us the oppurtunity to make the downtown better than it ever was. We can reclaim the good parts of the past cities (democracy, culture, commerce) without all the bad parts (pollution, pollution, pollution). To make the downtown a part of the new economy, we need new types of businesses and institutions to move there. UNF's acqusition of MOCA was thrilling to me, because I've seen how VCU has transformed downtown Richmond, and how NYU has filled Greenich Village in Manhattan. UNF should continue expanding downtown with a new law school right near the courthouses and the business school right next to the banks. That would be a job-oriented "public-private partnership" that the mayor says he loves. I'm not saying that we don't need people in occupations of all kinds -- I think the elimination of vocational training in our high schools has been a tragedy for young people. But I am thinking strategically about capturing the BIG money that flows to the cutting-edge businesses that move where the workers are educated and the government and universities are intertwined.

The old downtown was doomed. Dynamiting was a well-intentioned, drastic, and unfortunately ineffective way to try to change the city into something new for the post-WWII economy. Who could have predicted how far cars and television would change our society? My point is that this we need to focus on ideas for downtown that are a part of the high-end of the new global economy. We don't want to compete with China, because those jobs are terrible and pay nothing. The reason China is growing so fast is because it was so poor that there was nowhere to go but up. We want to compete with Houston and Charlotte as one of the new centers of educated workers. In the 1800s, Jacksonville was in a prime position for citrus and timber. What will be our niche in the 21st century?

"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." --  Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

stephendare

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »
I live in 5 Points and I cherish whatever is left of the old downtown. And I wonder about people who don't mourn the lost glory of our city. But lately I feel the decline and dynamite-fueled response was due to the rise of new technology, not the result of greed or stupidity. The original downtowns of cities arose because that's where the ports were. Cities grow at bottlenecks of commerce, so if the ships had to dock downtown, then that's where all the trains, producers, manufacturers, banks, and insurers (all the employers) had to set up and so that's where everyone had to live. No one complained when the technologies of the steamship and train created a boom in downtown Jacksonville, but later technologies like highways created a bust that we are still dealing with. We should focus less on negative-nostalgia and more on our vision for how Jacksonville can take advantage of today's technologies to become a leader among cities.

The post-WWII period destroyed the natural monopoly of cities as centers of commerce. When did cargo ships get so large that the ports had to move closer to the ocean? When did the highway system pull cargo off of ships and onto trucks? When did cars become affordable for everyone to ride the new highways? Although it is an island of finance and luxury now, Manhattan was once mostly factories and wharves! After WWI, it had the same problems and the same responses Jacksonville had. We have already forgotten how by the 1970s New York City had become a worrying symbol of national failure. Robert Caro's famous 1974 book about New York City's famous dynamiter and builder Robert Moses was subtitled "The Fall of New York". Would anyone say today that New York City is "fallen"? The factories are gone, but the city grabbed hold of finance at the start of a global financial boom and has been reborn.

I think we need to step away from the nostalgia some times and the glamorous cities in our minds that never really existed except for an elite, lucky few. Cities were pretty filthy place for a long time. Would anyone like the paper factories to reopen downtown to dump stinky pollution into the air and river? Living away from the dirt and noise of the city was a dream-come-true for most. For better or worse, the factories are gone and downtown is now a very clean place ready for a fresh start fresh.

The rise of the information economy and technology in general have given us the oppurtunity to make the downtown better than it ever was. We can reclaim the good parts of the past cities (democracy, culture, commerce) without all the bad parts (pollution, pollution, pollution). To make the downtown a part of the new economy, we need new types of businesses and institutions to move there. UNF's acqusition of MOCA was thrilling to me, because I've seen how VCU has transformed downtown Richmond, and how NYU has filled Greenich Village in Manhattan. UNF should continue expanding downtown with a new law school right near the courthouses and the business school right next to the banks. That would be a job-oriented "public-private partnership" that the mayor says he loves. I'm not saying that we don't need people in occupations of all kinds -- I think the elimination of vocational training in our high schools has been a tragedy for young people. But I am thinking strategically about capturing the BIG money that flows to the cutting-edge businesses that move where the workers are educated and the government and universities are intertwined.

The old downtown was doomed. Dynamiting was a well-intentioned, drastic, and unfortunately ineffective way to try to change the city into something new for the post-WWII economy. Who could have predicted how far cars and television would change our society? My point is that this we need to focus on ideas for downtown that are a part of the high-end of the new global economy. We don't want to compete with China, because those jobs are terrible and pay nothing. The reason China is growing so fast is because it was so poor that there was nowhere to go but up. We want to compete with Houston and Charlotte as one of the new centers of educated workers. In the 1800s, Jacksonville was in a prime position for citrus and timber. What will be our niche in the 21st century?

I think this may have been true, to a certain extent up until the 80s, but the part thirty years has just been bad decisions, racism and cupidity.
And now abide faith, hope and love; these three, but the greatest of these is love

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2013, 01:49:55 PM »
I live in 5 Points and I cherish whatever is left of the old downtown. And I wonder about people who don't mourn the lost glory of our city. But lately I feel the decline and dynamite-fueled response was due to the rise of new technology, not the result of greed or stupidity. The original downtowns of cities arose because that's where the ports were. Cities grow at bottlenecks of commerce, so if the ships had to dock downtown, then that's where all the trains, producers, manufacturers, banks, and insurers (all the employers) had to set up and so that's where everyone had to live. No one complained when the technologies of the steamship and train created a boom in downtown Jacksonville, but later technologies like highways created a bust that we are still dealing with. We should focus less on negative-nostalgia and more on our vision for how Jacksonville can take advantage of today's technologies to become a leader among cities.

The post-WWII period destroyed the natural monopoly of cities as centers of commerce. When did cargo ships get so large that the ports had to move closer to the ocean? When did the highway system pull cargo off of ships and onto trucks? When did cars become affordable for everyone to ride the new highways? Although it is an island of finance and luxury now, Manhattan was once mostly factories and wharves! After WWI, it had the same problems and the same responses Jacksonville had. We have already forgotten how by the 1970s New York City had become a worrying symbol of national failure. Robert Caro's famous 1974 book about New York City's famous dynamiter and builder Robert Moses was subtitled "The Fall of New York". Would anyone say today that New York City is "fallen"? The factories are gone, but the city grabbed hold of finance at the start of a global financial boom and has been reborn.

I think we need to step away from the nostalgia some times and the glamorous cities in our minds that never really existed except for an elite, lucky few. Cities were pretty filthy place for a long time. Would anyone like the paper factories to reopen downtown to dump stinky pollution into the air and river? Living away from the dirt and noise of the city was a dream-come-true for most. For better or worse, the factories are gone and downtown is now a very clean place ready for a fresh start fresh.

The rise of the information economy and technology in general have given us the oppurtunity to make the downtown better than it ever was. We can reclaim the good parts of the past cities (democracy, culture, commerce) without all the bad parts (pollution, pollution, pollution). To make the downtown a part of the new economy, we need new types of businesses and institutions to move there. UNF's acqusition of MOCA was thrilling to me, because I've seen how VCU has transformed downtown Richmond, and how NYU has filled Greenich Village in Manhattan. UNF should continue expanding downtown with a new law school right near the courthouses and the business school right next to the banks. That would be a job-oriented "public-private partnership" that the mayor says he loves. I'm not saying that we don't need people in occupations of all kinds -- I think the elimination of vocational training in our high schools has been a tragedy for young people. But I am thinking strategically about capturing the BIG money that flows to the cutting-edge businesses that move where the workers are educated and the government and universities are intertwined.

The old downtown was doomed. Dynamiting was a well-intentioned, drastic, and unfortunately ineffective way to try to change the city into something new for the post-WWII economy. Who could have predicted how far cars and television would change our society? My point is that this we need to focus on ideas for downtown that are a part of the high-end of the new global economy. We don't want to compete with China, because those jobs are terrible and pay nothing. The reason China is growing so fast is because it was so poor that there was nowhere to go but up. We want to compete with Houston and Charlotte as one of the new centers of educated workers. In the 1800s, Jacksonville was in a prime position for citrus and timber. What will be our niche in the 21st century?

I think this may have been true, to a certain extent up until the 80s, but the part thirty years has just been bad decisions, racism and cupidity.
cu·pid·i·ty 
/kyo͞oˈpiditē/
Noun
Greed for money or possessions.
Synonyms
greed - avarice - avidity - rapacity - greediness "Stephen you're right on the money!" ;)

BrooklynSouth

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2013, 02:49:19 PM »
I think this may have been true, to a certain extent up until the 80s, but the part thirty years has just been bad decisions, racism and cupidity.
I think there has always been greed and there always will be. I think the collapse came, maybe in the 80s as you say, when there was no competition left downtown, no other economic powers to push and pull the government and to keep things relatively fair. Everyone else left downtown and the only ones still around were the land speculators that are a particularly powerful force in Florida. I am a liberal, so I would say that the 80s were an especially bad time for the little guy, as factories closed and unions lost power to represent workers. New York City had Donald Trump in this period. I don't know the names, but I'm sure we had our own set of rascals to ruin the city neighborhoods of Jacksonville. My point is still that focusing on the rascals does not help a strategic plan for the city. The rascals will always be around trying to steal land and tax money. Who are the new economic powers that can be recruited as our allies against persistent "rascal-ism"? :)
"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." --  Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

stephendare

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 04:37:49 PM »
I think this may have been true, to a certain extent up until the 80s, but the part thirty years has just been bad decisions, racism and cupidity.
I think there has always been greed and there always will be. I think the collapse came, maybe in the 80s as you say, when there was no competition left downtown, no other economic powers to push and pull the government and to keep things relatively fair. Everyone else left downtown and the only ones still around were the land speculators that are a particularly powerful force in Florida. I am a liberal, so I would say that the 80s were an especially bad time for the little guy, as factories closed and unions lost power to represent workers. New York City had Donald Trump in this period. I don't know the names, but I'm sure we had our own set of rascals to ruin the city neighborhoods of Jacksonville. My point is still that focusing on the rascals does not help a strategic plan for the city. The rascals will always be around trying to steal land and tax money. Who are the new economic powers that can be recruited as our allies against persistent "rascal-ism"? :)

Well Southerners are slightly different in this respect:  We like to respect our elders and elder generations.  Without a little critical attention, the tendency is to try and repeat the same old 'great' ideas from the past, in hopes of making them work with one final try behind it.

Most people simply did not know why the downtown (and indeed the consolidated taxation structure) buckled and failed, and simply being able to do an accurate post mortem has been kind of necessary.

For example, when the next investor comes in, we cant still be trying to uphold a design which keeps the black residents of Springfield from being able to transit easily between the neighborhoods.

And the next big improvement to downtown doesnt have to be building yet another parking garage to 'fix' the parking problem.

and so on.

Hopefully we provide a mixture of both of these things:  A positive move forward, as well as an accurate method of both criticizing and praising the decisions which have brought us to where we presently are.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 04:40:04 PM by stephendare »
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rgold

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 07:12:01 PM »
Thanks for the great history/story about Jacksonville! I have lived here all of my life. I love Jax! I actually took dance lessons from Buddy Sherwood and then Gloria Norman@Norman Studio's when I was a child.

Jim Crooks

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2013, 06:09:11 PM »
A fascinating conversation. As some of you know, I have written extensively about downtown since the 1960s in my book, Jacksonville, the Consolidation Story, from Civil Rights to the Jaguars. What so-called urban renewal did to LaVilla was disruptive and dysfunctional. The redevelopment around the sports complex strikes me as creating a viable center. Moving city hall to the St. James building was a good first step, but now we need to develop Hemming Plaza. The stores, museum, library and court house around the Plaza work. The Jacksonville Landing, however, has only fulfilled a small part of its potential, I think due to unimaginative leadership. Originally the convention center was going to be there, across from the Omni, but others had different plans and it currently is removed from downtown. The prosperity of the 1990s helped downtown (eg. more housing). The great recession has hurt. We need creative  minds to move forward.
Jim Crooks

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2013, 06:16:52 PM »
Hi Jim!  Glad you are sharing your thoughts here. :)
Creative minds are certainly important in a community, especially one the size of Jacksonville. Any ideas for Hemming Plaza?
Diane Melendez

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2013, 06:20:05 PM »
A fascinating conversation. As some of you know, I have written extensively about downtown since the 1960s in my book, Jacksonville, the Consolidation Story, from Civil Rights to the Jaguars. What so-called urban renewal did to LaVilla was disruptive and dysfunctional. The redevelopment around the sports complex strikes me as creating a viable center. Moving city hall to the St. James building was a good first step, but now we need to develop Hemming Plaza. The stores, museum, library and court house around the Plaza work. The Jacksonville Landing, however, has only fulfilled a small part of its potential, I think due to unimaginative leadership. Originally the convention center was going to be there, across from the Omni, but others had different plans and it currently is removed from downtown. The prosperity of the 1990s helped downtown (eg. more housing). The great recession has hurt. We need creative  minds to move forward.
Jim Crooks

Welcome to the forum, professor. It's hard to argue with those comments.
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thelakelander

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2013, 07:11:09 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Jim. Glad to have you aboard.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2013, 08:30:31 PM »
A fascinating conversation. As some of you know, I have written extensively about downtown since the 1960s in my book, Jacksonville, the Consolidation Story, from Civil Rights to the Jaguars. What so-called urban renewal did to LaVilla was disruptive and dysfunctional. The redevelopment around the sports complex strikes me as creating a viable center. Moving city hall to the St. James building was a good first step, but now we need to develop Hemming Plaza. The stores, museum, library and court house around the Plaza work. The Jacksonville Landing, however, has only fulfilled a small part of its potential, I think due to unimaginative leadership. Originally the convention center was going to be there, across from the Omni, but others had different plans and it currently is removed from downtown. The prosperity of the 1990s helped downtown (eg. more housing). The great recession has hurt. We need creative  minds to move forward.
Jim Crooks

Hello Jim and welcome!  Creative minds?  What do you think about our heritage streetcar proposals?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-streetcars-coming-to-downtown-jacksonville
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jul-how-to-get-a-streetcar-system-in-jacksonville

stephendare

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Re: Four Things That Nearly Wiped Jacksonville Off The Map
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 09:53:35 AM »
If you want downtown to boom, don't hand the job over to the city government. Sell the property to private enterprise and they will figure out how to make the land provide an income for them. It certainly worked in the past. Why is free enterprise despised and more government control and expenditures welcomed? The government spends at least twice or three times what the private sector would to obtain the same result.
And now abide faith, hope and love; these three, but the greatest of these is love