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Author Topic: Southside Construction Update - February 2013  (Read 2591 times)

ProjectMaximus

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 01:26:44 AM »
^thanks for that information. It makes sense when I think about it. I'm not upset that the density is occurring outside the core, it's that much of the density is just not created in a particularly sustainable, walkable context. I have friends that live around Deerwood and by SJTC who will cross parking lots, jaywalk and work their way through hedges to walk to destinations. It would be minimal cost and take just small design changes to make those dense, semi-suburban areas an order of magnitude more pedestrian friendly. It's interesting to see how far a half mile walk will really get you if you stick to roads, sidewalks and paths in these areas versus a half mile radius on paper.

Bingo!

thelakelander

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 06:38:35 AM »
These St. Johns Town Center property images suggest that suburban density can infill differently, if allowed, encouraged and guided. 


Some may not like that this project is stick built but at least it's up on the street.  This project has a site design that is actually more urban and pedestrian scale that the Riverside Place project proposed in Brooklyn.


5000 Town Center would be an idea project for the urban core. Even in the middle of suburbia, it's residents will be able to walk to retail, dining, and entertainment venues located at St. Johns Town Center and Markets at Town Center.  It will also be a much easier walk for it's residents than it is for residential communities adjacent to the Avenues, Regency Square, and River City Marketplace.


For what it is, how this recently built Brio is situated on it's outparcel isn't a bad thing. It's right up against the road and features outdoor dining between the building and the front property line.  The design of the road in front of it looks to be more a problem for the encouragement of multimodal usage. Big wide auto lanes, sidewalks with no amenities such as shade trees, crosswalks at major intersections with no pedestrian refuges, etc.


Anyway, if we want suburban walkability in certain nodes it's going to require us to modify our land use and transportation policies.  The mobility plan is only a start but we'll need some type of context sensitive streets policy to change the design guidelines of our streets and a land use modification to at least get buildings up on the sidewalks.

cityimrov

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 07:29:10 AM »
I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Dapperdan

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 07:44:06 AM »
I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Renters or homeowners insurance.

mbwright

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 10:14:13 AM »
TD*  Take a look at Mahan Rd, just past I-10 for the Welaunee development (clearing being done now, along I-10), and then the Fallschase property is for sale.  Devoe's property at the Car Museum is also slated for a big development.  It is just a matter of time.  Lots more traffic on the horizon on the far edge of town.  There are also lots of projects going up near campus.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:16:35 AM by mbwright »

thelakelander

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 10:58:13 AM »
Fringe development in Tallahassee?  Sprawling Killearn stands head and center.

simms3

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 12:49:39 PM »
I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Renters or homeowners insurance.

If you pay $900 for a 1 BR in a stick building, you can upgrade to a similar building constructed with stone and pay $1200, but then you still run basically the same risk that some idiot will start a fire that could burn through the building...so second above.  Renters or homeowners is your only monetary protection and living on the 1st floor is your best life protection. :)

FYI, the roof of 5000 Town already caught fire...bad omen for the only stone construction in town?

simms3

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 01:16:15 PM »
This just came through my email:

Quote
The exceptional year that Charlotte experienced in 2012 was not fully anticipated at year’s end 2011. However, MPF Research’s second quarter report (July 2012) showed Charlotte’s year-over-year rent growth at 6.8 percent, placing it third in the top 10 markets for rent growth nationally (of the top 50 national markets). This trend was reinforced by MPF’s third quarter publication which reported year-over-year rent growth of 6.3 percent. This marked the fourth straight quarter of year-over-year rent growth in excess of 6 percent. In addition, the report showed overall market occupancy levels of 95.9 percent, the second highest achieved in 14 years. Such favorable news serves as confirmation that the Charlotte economy has remained strong through the financial crisis, as banking sector jobs have remained largely intact and the overall economy of Charlotte is more diverse than many once thought.
 
As a result of the favorable market dynamics, Charlotte’s visibility amidst the national investment landscape has increased, causing investors, developers and lenders alike to take note. Charlotte has quickly become a strong alternative to the Raleigh/Durham market, which had been the most desirable market for multifamily investment in North Carolina in 2011 — and one of the leading markets in the nation.
 
According to Real Capital Analytics, Charlotte’s transaction volume was just shy of $900 million in 2012. Capital sources continue to flock to the highest grade assets, particularly in infill locations. There is steady sale activity in all tranches of the market, including some lingering foreclosure sales in the C and D asset space (where the foreclosure process serves to right-size deals that were overleveraged at the peak of the market). Historically low interest rates are fueling the multifamily investment sales market, with rates remaining at or below four percent for long-term, fixed-rate financing. This low interest rate environment has resulted in historically low cap rates, ranging from just below five percent for high-quality assets, to just below eight percent for assets of lower quality.
 
Predictably, the strong market fundamentals have, and continue to attract significant development activity. Real Data reported in September 2012 that 3,200 new units had been absorbed in the preceding 12 months, while an additional 4,000 units are currently under construction and  another 10,000 units are in various stages of planning. Development financing has become more readily available over the last 12 months and providers of both debt and equity are more tolerant of higher-risk investments (thereby enabling development).
 
Current development activity is segregated to a few distinct geographic clusters. The majority of new development projects are located in infill locations, predominately close to Uptown. Such areas include South End, NoDa (North Davidson), and Elizabeth. In addition, the affluent suburban submarkets of Southpark and Northlake have several projects currently under construction. 
 
Of these active submarkets, the South End submarket has been most active. Development in South End has been driven by its proximity to Uptown Charlotte; as well as the award-winning light-rail public transportation infrastructure, which has sparked an abundance of retail, restaurant, and entertainment venues in the immediate vicinity. The result is a highly desirable urban-lifestyle that appeals to the Gen-Y renter pool (the population that is driving current demand for apartments). JLB Partners, Colonial Properties Trust, Proffitt Dixon Partners, and Mid-America are currently building more than 850 units at various points along the rail line. Long term, South End is well on its way to becoming one of Charlotte’s most dynamic areas; however in the short term, oversupply poses a legitimate threat.
 
Despite documented high barriers to entry, the Southpark submarket will deliver two new rental communities beginning in the summer of 2013, including a $52 million, 321-unit high-profile project by Crescent Resources called Circle at Southpark. The Northlake submarket has also been a hotbed for development. Charlotte-based Charter Properties recently completed a 264-unit community called Longview. Ashton Reserve at Northlake, a 330-unit property developed by Tynes Development, and Madison Square at Northlake, a 285-unit property developed by Spectrum Properties, are both nearing completion. Wood Partners just began work on the 246-unit Perimeter Lofts that will begin leasing in the summer of 2013.
 
The Charlotte apartment market will remain strong in 2013 and should perform in the top tier of apartment markets in the Southeast. We expect investment activity to remain brisk, driven by the continued low interest rate environment and strong appetite for hard assets (real estate). Due to the city’s strong leadership, pro-business attitude, and the high quality of life available, Charlotte’s population growth should continue to build upon the growth seen during the previous decade (2000 to 2010). The Charlotte/Douglas International Airport remains a key economic driver for the city while ongoing investment and expansion of the airport will continue to attract business. Charlotte remains one of the most vibrant cities in the Sunbelt by maintaining a low cost of living, quality transportation options and a diverse economic base.

I think it underscores what I've been saying.  It's all about jobs, quality of those jobs, who those jobs are going to, where those jobs are located...and low interest rates.  In Jacksonville, there are still a ton of relocation jobs being offered to 35+ year olds and only a small amount of high paying jobs being offered to the under 30 set...and most of these jobs are going to the SS.  So stick construction garden apartments, cheaper tract housing, and expensive executive housing in San Marco and Ponte Vedra are the beneficiaries.  In Charlotte there is a thriving job market for the under 30 set in the city's downtown, and these jobs pay well enough where these young folks can rent in more expensive infill around downtown to be convenient to work, and there just so happens to be a light rail line that increases transportation options for Uptown workers, contributing to the emphasis on multifamily infill in the area and the emergence of a cool, vibrant area.

stephendare

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 01:19:29 PM »
Thanks Simms.  Nothing like having facts on your side.

And now abide faith, hope and love; these three, but the greatest of these is love

fsquid

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 02:55:37 PM »
Quote
I think it underscores what I've been saying.  It's all about jobs, quality of those jobs, who those jobs are going to, where those jobs are located...and low interest rates.  In Jacksonville, there are still a ton of relocation jobs being offered to 35+ year olds and only a small amount of high paying jobs being offered to the under 30 set...and most of these jobs are going to the SS.  So stick construction garden apartments, cheaper tract housing, and expensive executive housing in San Marco and Ponte Vedra are the beneficiaries.  In Charlotte there is a thriving job market for the under 30 set in the city's downtown, and these jobs pay well enough where these young folks can rent in more expensive infill around downtown to be convenient to work, and there just so happens to be a light rail line that increases transportation options for Uptown workers, contributing to the emphasis on multifamily infill in the area and the emergence of a cool, vibrant area.

Sounds like me.  Started working as a young professional in Charlotte, got relocated to JAX at age 29 with a family.  Agree with your thesis.

Tacachale

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 05:11:21 PM »
Yes, even simms can be correct when he listens to the evidence ;)

I think that perception is pretty spot on. I've heard it said that Jacksonville is a mecca for folks in their 30s and 40s, likely due to exactly that. The other thing is that many of them have families, so they go for single-family houses and good school districts, so northern St. Johns is the beneficiary there.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

cityimrov

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »
I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Renters or homeowners insurance.

If you pay $900 for a 1 BR in a stick building, you can upgrade to a similar building constructed with stone and pay $1200, but then you still run basically the same risk that some idiot will start a fire that could burn through the building...so second above.  Renters or homeowners is your only monetary protection and living on the 1st floor is your best life protection. :)

FYI, the roof of 5000 Town already caught fire...bad omen for the only stone construction in town?

How quickly does fire spread in a wood building vs stone?  What kind of building would I want to live in for the best fire protection? 


simms3

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 11:15:31 PM »
Yes, even simms can be correct when he listens to the evidence ;)

But I thought I was always correct! ;)

I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Renters or homeowners insurance.

If you pay $900 for a 1 BR in a stick building, you can upgrade to a similar building constructed with stone and pay $1200, but then you still run basically the same risk that some idiot will start a fire that could burn through the building...so second above.  Renters or homeowners is your only monetary protection and living on the 1st floor is your best life protection. :)

FYI, the roof of 5000 Town already caught fire...bad omen for the only stone construction in town?

How quickly does fire spread in a wood building vs stone?  What kind of building would I want to live in for the best fire protection? 



I think you're maybe confusing water with combustible material :D.  Plenty of steel frame skyscrapers with top of the line fire retardants have still burned out, so any building is at risk.  I don't know the statistics, but I do have visibility into the industry :) I haven't yet heard of modern wood-framed apartments burning at a materially higher rate than concrete construction buildings.

You have to keep in mind that most apartments are built in at least semi-developed areas where fire stations are close and in areas with at least some degree of code that enforces a certain level of quality control, which could translate to stricter fire codes (this is especially true in fire prone states such as FL, TX and CA).

Also, the point of concrete construction usually isn't one of quality or safety.  Construction codes vary by municpality and jurisdiction, but typically anything under 5 floors only needs a wood frame.  Something that is 5 floors may blend the two materials, and then concrete is used, per code, for anything over 5 floors.  That has more to do with the engineering and load factors and less to do with fire proofing.

Why you see more concrete in larger cities also has to do with height...land is so scarce and expensive that developers must build up, which usually means the 5-10 floor range for most developments and higher for a few, virtually all of which require the use of concrete and steel.  The lower buildings using stone are often in historic districts which require certain materials (stone) and architecture (read stone...it's ok because these are often high rent areas where it doesn't take as many units to justify a development).

Frankly, I'd be more worried about fire in a dense city filled with concrete (such as SF where I live) than in the middle of the Southside where swampland, asphalt parking and retention ponds dominate.  I'm probably sleeping above many levels of gas and steam pipes, all of which are just ready to explode at a moment's notice.  I'm more worried about them than my neighbor or myself starting a kitchen fire.  On the SS you don't have a network of dangerous utilities underground, you don't have gas ranges in apartment building kitches, you don't have steam or gas heat (likely not), and you have lines running to the building through wet FL soil, not dozens of lines passing through underneath in city utility tunnels.

I'd be more worried about hurricanes...but despite how shitty FL construction appears to be statewide, these types of buildings have all held up pretty well in South FL.

cityimrov

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 11:35:21 PM »
Yes, even simms can be correct when he listens to the evidence ;)

But I thought I was always correct! ;)

I have this question about all these wooden buildings.  Let's say my neighbor who lives in the first floor in one corner of my condo building is one of those tough guys who doesn't believe in calling for help.  After setting his kitchen on fire, he then completely ignores all the signs he needs help and somehow manages to engulf his entire unit in flames.  I happen to live in the other side of the building on the third floor. 

What kind of protection do I have from his folly? 

Renters or homeowners insurance.

If you pay $900 for a 1 BR in a stick building, you can upgrade to a similar building constructed with stone and pay $1200, but then you still run basically the same risk that some idiot will start a fire that could burn through the building...so second above.  Renters or homeowners is your only monetary protection and living on the 1st floor is your best life protection. :)

FYI, the roof of 5000 Town already caught fire...bad omen for the only stone construction in town?

How quickly does fire spread in a wood building vs stone?  What kind of building would I want to live in for the best fire protection? 



I think you're maybe confusing water with combustible material :D.  Plenty of steel frame skyscrapers with top of the line fire retardants have still burned out, so any building is at risk.  I don't know the statistics, but I do have visibility into the industry :) I haven't yet heard of modern wood-framed apartments burning at a materially higher rate than concrete construction buildings.

You have to keep in mind that most apartments are built in at least semi-developed areas where fire stations are close and in areas with at least some degree of code that enforces a certain level of quality control, which could translate to stricter fire codes (this is especially true in fire prone states such as FL, TX and CA).

Also, the point of concrete construction usually isn't one of quality or safety.  Construction codes vary by municpality and jurisdiction, but typically anything under 5 floors only needs a wood frame.  Something that is 5 floors may blend the two materials, and then concrete is used, per code, for anything over 5 floors.  That has more to do with the engineering and load factors and less to do with fire proofing.

Why you see more concrete in larger cities also has to do with height...land is so scarce and expensive that developers must build up, which usually means the 5-10 floor range for most developments and higher for a few, virtually all of which require the use of concrete and steel.  The lower buildings using stone are often in historic districts which require certain materials (stone) and architecture (read stone...it's ok because these are often high rent areas where it doesn't take as many units to justify a development).

Frankly, I'd be more worried about fire in a dense city filled with concrete (such as SF where I live) than in the middle of the Southside where swampland, asphalt parking and retention ponds dominate.  I'm probably sleeping above many levels of gas and steam pipes, all of which are just ready to explode at a moment's notice.  I'm more worried about them than my neighbor or myself starting a kitchen fire.  On the SS you don't have a network of dangerous utilities underground, you don't have gas ranges in apartment building kitches, you don't have steam or gas heat (likely not), and you have lines running to the building through wet FL soil, not dozens of lines passing through underneath in city utility tunnels.

I'd be more worried about hurricanes...but despite how shitty FL construction appears to be statewide, these types of buildings have all held up pretty well in South FL.

It's not just Southside.  I remember the construction of those new condos in Riverside.  They were built using wood.  That new apartment across from the Y is being built with wood.  If that area booms, there's a good chance that all the nearby buildings will be built with wood.  That's a lot of wood in a small area.   Are you sure the safety level is the same as concrete? 

If so, do you have any idea why a lot of small hospitals and corporate office buildings are built using steel and concrete instead of wood? 

simms3

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Re: Southside Construction Update - February 2013
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 03:25:20 AM »
Can't compare hospitals and corporate office buildings to rentals.  Commercial space has extensive building systems that run horizontally with each floor (12' slab to slab and 9' ceiling heights leaving 3' to fit these crazy building systems/wiring in each floor).  All rentals need are an efficient layout that allows vertical piping to run up and down through unit walls (aka floorplan "stacks" where bathrooms/kitchens are located in the same spot up and down the building).  Construction is totally different.  Residential is about 10' slab to slab with 9-9.5' ceiling heights, so just one of the many differences.

Building systems such as mechanical rooms, elevator lifts, air handlers, chillers, pumps, etc are required for even small commercial buildings, and they go up top.  Heavy stuff that can't be supported on wood framing.  Most of these garden apartments on the SS simply need flooring that will support a bed and the HVACs are the same kinds of units you'll find at houses, and they are located on the ground (on the roofs or even individual balconies in value-engineered mid/highrises...but they are light).  Usually garden apartments don't have elevators...but the ones that do are interesting to see UC as you'll first see a bunch of 4-5 floor stone shafts, and then you'll see the wooden structures built around them.

Here's what I can tell you...we've had shitty stick construction in FL for decades now and very few fires to show for it...and surprisingly the construction has held up in hurricanes, too.  Doesn't mean there haven't been mold issues, however!

Also, besides code, land prices, job centers, demographic trends, etc. in most Sunbelt cities people (even 20 year olds) are used to having so much for so little (in terms of material goods).  This means renter preferences are for interior finishes, space, and amenities.  Cities in the south are desirable because they can give a person these things for less, but the cities themselves usually don't have much more to offer.  Developers must build units that can be rented out at prices not too high for the area, and with the many features desired in these lower income lower COL areas.

In SF all people want is to be able to afford to live in the city...so you get some dumpy shoebox studio for $2 or $3000, but you're never there and you're in the city enjoying what it has to offer.  In Jax, you get paid less so there's no way you can afford too much more than $1000, and the city doesn't offer you much so the apartment damn well better (plus whereas in the big cities young people meet each other out and about more, in less developed cities like Jax, young people either know each other from growing up or they meet in the free gym in the building).

Developers can't build some high quality thing and include granite counters and abundant amenities and free parking, etc and rent them for what the market can afford...so you get shitty construction and bad architecture/design in low density suburban areas, but you get your top priority "must-haves" apartment features.