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Author Topic: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway  (Read 5833 times)

thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2013, 11:09:43 PM »
Now perhaps there is some merit in the idea that Ock seems to be suggesting: to "big box" out the eastern end of downtown where the blasted remains of the old industrial district sits.  Perhaps there is some use to that.

How well is Walmart spurring redevelopment on Philips Highway? I don't think a lack of industrial need is why that area looks like that.  Instead, we've replaced industry with tailgate parking lots. Whenever we come to consider new uses, how about using an old waterfront industrial district for high paying maritime related uses?  North Florida Shipyards seems pretty boxed in. Might as well take advantage of those big bridges, a 35-40' deep river and the limited amount of rail accessible land that remains along the riverfront.  I bet, you'd generate more jobs and higher paying property taxes going industrial than suburban commercial.

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Perhaps such a strategy would bring the suburbanites back into the downtown by creating a huge retail area out of a huge tract of land that will not be used for a generation or more?  Didnt the Town Center start with the big boxes first? (honest question, i was busy in springfield at the time and never went out there)

Town Center started out as a mall just like Regency Square and Avenues did.  It just happens to be outdoor. There's nothing unique about SJTC.  It's the same type of regional retail lifestyle center that's replaced the enclosed mall concept all over the country in the last 10-15 years.

stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2013, 01:41:27 AM »
Its cleaned up the area a good bit. and the marble companies and building supply companies have picked up business as a result of Walmart being close by.

There isnt any reason to pretend that a walkable footprint for IKEA couldnt be designed and suggested to them.  But it won't be an urbanizer.  Even with a cool redesign, without vision it would just be the regular Jacksonville Phase Oner.

The best use it could be put for (for a municipal rather than a customer, point of view) is simply as an anchor to a larger retail greater area.

Probably it would be exactly a perfect fit for redeveloping Regency Square (provided Steinmart could even be talked into partnering).

But A stand alone IKEA would be silly.

Cluster it with seven other retail giants and form a wedge on the downtown periphery and you would create instant traffic.

And foot traffic is the key to retail building.

But even if you put a hundred mega stores on the downtown periphery and still allowed the cops to evacuate and isolate the downtown from all traffic during heavy visitation and you will outsmart even something as fool proof as foot traffic, the way Jax has been doing so cleverly for the past decade.
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thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2013, 06:56:36 AM »
Why would Stein Mart need to partner with anyone at Regency? Regency Square Mall is owned by General Growth Properties out of Chicago.  General Growth is a competitor to Simon, the REIT that partnered with Ben Carter to develop SJTC.  Playing around with their box last night, I noticed it fits like a glove between Sears and Belk and leaves you some space for something like an outdoor collection of clustered eateries.  Also played around with their box on the Shipyards site.  The only spot it fits is the piece of dirt immediately next door to where Kids Kampus needs to be.  Overall, with parking, you would eat up roughly half of the site alone with a "warehouse" store use that has absolutely nothing to do with water or urban walkability.

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Its cleaned up the area a good bit. and the marble companies and building supply companies have picked up business as a result of Walmart being close by.

We have low standards if that's the type of clean up envisioned for downtown.  I'm of the mindset that urban vibrancy to me means a 24/7 walkable mixed use environment.  I just don't see how you realistically get there subsidizing "preferred" big box stores or treating it like a mall attract suburbanites.  This falls more into the one-trick pony gimmick to me.  Might as well just pour all of your cash into a convention center.  At least it will help activity on Bay Street and the downtown hotels.  You aren't getting any of that with something like IKEA.

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Cluster it with seven other retail giants and form a wedge on the downtown periphery and you would create instant traffic.

Sounds easy but once you start looking at our retail demographics, analyzing sites and the fact that it's easily arguable this city has more supply than demand, I'd argue there are less risky and more affordable methods to jump start economic revitalization.

Mathew1056

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2013, 08:58:57 AM »
The biggest asset I see to putting a Wal-Mart, or even a cluster of national retailers, is the 24-hour aspect that would be established. Wal-Mart on Philips has had little effect on the area because the population and design does not exist around the store to spur growth. If you can get people use to going downtown at all hours of the night you can get them to go to restaurants at night. If it is going to be build anywhere I vote next to 95 on and the Prime Osborn. It's kind of a wasteland out there anyway. It would keep heavy traffic from penetraiting too deep into downtown and offer quick access to suburban neighborhoods that currently have to go to Philips.

thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2013, 09:18:35 AM »
Suburbanites aren't going to pass tons of malls and strip malls to drive into downtown because of a couple of big box stores.  If you're seeking retail boxes of various sizes, we should be doing it for the purpose of serving urban core residents.  Thus you have to start considering/utilizing the demographics of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown as well. Suburbanities will come occassionally once you have a lively mixed-use urban core that provides an atmosphere that is unique to the rest of the metropolitan area. 

Just wondering, what would you guys do to revamp the Arlington Expressway corridor?  It has the bones in place and location to transition into a linear node of mixed use activity with direct and short access to and from downtown.  What role do you think it plays in Jacksonville's future?

Mathew1056

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2013, 09:35:35 AM »
I'm not saying avoid the needs of the urban core neighborhoods. A strong retail center would benefit the all of those neighborhoods, outer suburbanites would be a fridge benefit.

As far as the Arlington Expressway, I think you assessment of the road is correct. It would serve the community well as a BRT corridor. It drives me crazy every time I think about the plan the city is about to implement I get angry. BRT would work better on an actual line that served people, not a phase one downtown line.

stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2013, 12:22:07 PM »
Suburbanites aren't going to pass tons of malls and strip malls to drive into downtown because of a couple of big box stores.  If you're seeking retail boxes of various sizes, we should be doing it for the purpose of serving urban core residents.  Thus you have to start considering/utilizing the demographics of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown as well. Suburbanities will come occassionally once you have a lively mixed-use urban core that provides an atmosphere that is unique to the rest of the metropolitan area. 


Lake, I think its pretty obvious who does the shopping in the "Lander" household.
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thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2013, 12:33:42 PM »
Lol. To be fair, I'll also say it's pretty obvious which one made a living off of working with them to identify and design development sites that fit their demographic and site requirements.  Nobody is driving past four suburban Targets to get to one downtown on a regular basis and the average IKEA visitor isn't spending that day walking down downtown streets or dining in downtown restaurants. So the question becomes how do we best take advantage of our neighborhood's assets in a manner where they work with the market.  If we can resolve that issue, we can not only have a special downtown but a vibrant Arlington, Regency Square and SJTC as well.

stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2013, 12:33:52 PM »
Why would Stein Mart need to partner with anyone at Regency? Regency Square Mall is owned by General Growth Properties out of Chicago.  General Growth is a competitor to Simon, the REIT that partnered with Ben Carter to develop SJTC.  Playing around with their box last night, I noticed it fits like a glove between Sears and Belk and leaves you some space for something like an outdoor collection of clustered eateries.  Also played around with their box on the Shipyards site.  The only spot it fits is the piece of dirt immediately next door to where Kids Kampus needs to be.  Overall, with parking, you would eat up roughly half of the site alone with a "warehouse" store use that has absolutely nothing to do with water or urban walkability.

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Its cleaned up the area a good bit. and the marble companies and building supply companies have picked up business as a result of Walmart being close by.

We have low standards if that's the type of clean up envisioned for downtown.  I'm of the mindset that urban vibrancy to me means a 24/7 walkable mixed use environment.  I just don't see how you realistically get there subsidizing "preferred" big box stores or treating it like a mall attract suburbanites.  This falls more into the one-trick pony gimmick to me.  Might as well just pour all of your cash into a convention center.  At least it will help activity on Bay Street and the downtown hotels.  You aren't getting any of that with something like IKEA.

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Cluster it with seven other retail giants and form a wedge on the downtown periphery and you would create instant traffic.

Sounds easy but once you start looking at our retail demographics, analyzing sites and the fact that it's easily arguable this city has more supply than demand, I'd argue there are less risky and more affordable methods to jump start economic revitalization.

1.  Because when we spoke with IKEA about locating to Jville, they wanted a local retail partner with a specific financial and experience profile. The only one that qualified was Steinmart.  So without them, there is no deal.  You proposed Regency Mall, so in this case, if you wanted to relocate IKEA there, thats who you would have to talk to first.

2.  You asked whether walmart had improved Phillips, and I responded that they had only cleaned up the area a bit---not helped redevelop, but improved.

3.  Such a strategy worked and is still working for Ben Carter, so obviously it works in Jville.  But if you look at the rest of my statement, you will see what I truly think of as the problem---my point here is to underline the fact that none of these schemes or plans are impossible.  Just impractical because they require an unlikely amount of long term focus and control in order to work, something that doesnt happen very often anywhere in the US, and almost never here in Florida.

As I pointed out before, simply look at a google map and see if any of the resulting 'development' around the big box locations matches what you would like to see downtown, and you will find your answer if what that retailer currently does will work to accomplish what you hope.

I don't like the looks of the IKEA 'neighborhoods' that we have seen so far.

But that doesnt mean we have seen them all, and perhaps Ock has knowledge of something that the rest of us are missing.
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thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2013, 12:51:36 PM »
1.  Because when we spoke with IKEA about locating to Jville, they wanted a local retail partner with a specific financial and experience profile. The only one that qualified was Steinmart.  So without them, there is no deal.  You proposed Regency Mall, so in this case, if you wanted to relocate IKEA there, thats who you would have to talk to first.

Just wondering what are IKEA's local retail partners in Orlando and Tampa?  Are you claiming if Stein Mart was in, they'd be here?  If so, I'd question that given they aren't in any markets similar to Jacksonville's size.  The smallest I can find is SLC, but it's hundreds of miles from just about everything, so there's no overlap with nearby markets like Orlando.  My basic point here is Stein Mart or not, if your market isn't large enough you're not in the game.  Perhaps in 2020 we'll get there but I'm commenting on today.

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2.  You asked whether walmart had improved Phillips, and I responded that they had only cleaned up the area a bit---not helped redevelop, but improved.

However, the context of the question was in regards to DT development.  The "improvement" along Philips is specifically in the site itself moreso than redevelopment along the corridor, which is what we'd be desiring as an anchor in an area like downtown.

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3.  Such a strategy worked and is still working for Ben Carter, so obviously it works in Jville.  But if you look at the rest of my statement, you will see what I truly think of as the problem---my point here is to underline the fact that none of these schemes or plans are impossible.  Just impractical because they require an unlikely amount of long term focus and control in order to work, something that doesnt happen very often anywhere in the US, and almost never here in Florida.

I'm confused, what strategy worked for Ben Carter?  Developing a mall in a region where the demographics, population, roadway network, HHI, etc. aligned with the project constructed?

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As I pointed out before, simply look at a google map and see if any of the resulting 'development' around the big box locations matches what you would like to see downtown, and you will find your answer if what that retailer currently does will work to accomplish what you hope.

I don't like the looks of the IKEA 'neighborhoods' that we have seen so far.

I skipped this step last night because I've already done it several times over.  I could spit you out a list of retailers in a heartbeat where the downtown area's demographics match their site selection criteria.  Most of those (IKEA would not be included) can easily fit within an urban environment as well.  However, they really aren't the problem on the design end.  Our land use policy makes it difficult for pedestrian scale projects in most areas of the city.  For example, anything along a corridor like Arlington Expressway/State & Union would have to be completely rezoned.

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But that doesnt mean we have seen them all, and perhaps Ock has knowledge of something that the rest of us are missing.

I'm just having a friendly debate with Ock.  He's a big boy and should be able to prove his ultimate point one way or the other.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:55:46 PM by thelakelander »

stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2013, 01:06:11 PM »
I think its clear that we agree on all the same points, lake.  But I am interested in what Ock is saying, since I often times miss what he is talking about because I assume that I already know, ---regardless of whether you guys are debating or not.

The land underneath the Town Center belongs mostly to John Peyton and his dad.

That is the reason it is out there.  They could deliver the footprint and they could guarantee that the infrastructure that makes it work was deployed in a reasonable time.  Before John Peyton became Mayor he was the Chairman of the Board of the JTA, and none of that development happend overnight'.  It was planned and then carefully deployed.

As it happens it dovetailed nicely with the old Skinner Family ambitions for the area, which is why they donated the land to UNF in the first place.

So looking at the area as a local example of a public private partnership in which the conditions for success were created by deliberate public planning to accomodate the development is a pretty useful model.

Carter had the relationships with the retail outlets and therefore was able to book the tenants, Peyton had the land, Peyton Jr and the JEA provided the public investment into the roads, lights, exit ramps etc, and voila you have a controlled, planned, successful development that is designed to last for about the length of Carter's land lease, at which point the profits will have been exhausted with the least possible amount of investment money expended, Most of the costs will have been externalized and at the end of the lease (which is the actual governing principle, incidentally) there will be very little of value for the landowners to exploit by refusing to renew the arrangement and another massive infusion of capital on the part of the lessee.

It isnt built for neighborhood improvement, its not build to last, and its not built for any other purpose than to provide and engine of money for the handful of investors and the retailers who lease tenant space from the landlease holder.

In 40 years it will be gone.

But how that private partnership actually worked and the smoothness with which it was executed proves that Jville actually has the ability to do what it wants when it is properly motivated and there is a clear enough vision.


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stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2013, 01:14:05 PM »
Here is what Tampa's version of DVI and JEDC has to say about IKEA in their newsletter:  Its clear that they are drinking the same koolaid as our locals, but they mention Tempe.

I always find these kinds of press pieces amusing.  They make speculative claims meant to ramp up expectations for what they hope will be self fulfilling prophecies by mentioning nebulous examples of something related that happened in some indefinable way someplace else.

But every now and then the elfin magic works.

http://partnership.tampabay.org/press.asp?rls_id=2413&cat_id=1&

It isn't just fans of European furniture and Swedish meatballs who are awaiting Ikea's opening. Other stores likely will ride on its coattails to the area east of downtown along Adamo Drive.

Ikea is expected to draw so many people from all over Central Florida that other retailers will sprout up around it. Already, a Denver-based furniture store, Furniture Row LLC, has purchased land next to the Ikea along North 26th Street.

Meanwhile, real estate brokers have placed calls to small industrial businesses near the new Ikea, hoping the businesses will be willing to sell, say owners of small businesses nearby. Those calls stopped with the recession.

It's hard to predict how much potential the Adamo Drive area has for retail.

"I do think it is inevitable, but it's not going to happen overnight," said Tim Wilmath, who directs valuations for the Hillsborough County property appraiser.

Elsewhere, Ikea has been a catalyst for development. In Tempe, Ariz., one developer tried to capitalize on a nearby Ikea by building a 240,000-square-foot shopping center focused on furniture.

"They're a superregional draw," said the project's developer, Adam Gilburne. "They draw all the way from Tucson; they draw from 100 miles away."

Furniture Row has a history of locating near the Swedish-based furniture chain. It has purchased land near Ikea's new store in Charlotte, N.C., and it opened a store in Salt Lake City near Ikea.

The company paid more than $4 million, or $22 a square foot, for land next to the Tampa Ikea. Wilmath said that's a price companies normally would pay to be near a mall.

Patrick Berman, a retail real estate broker for firm Cushman & Wakefield, said a discount store such as Sam's Club or Wal-Mart might want to build nearby because the Tampa Ikea is in a relatively low-income neighborhood.

Some local landowners are optimistic Ikea will boost property values in what is an industrial area of Tampa, although there's no sign that values have increased, Wilmath said.

At least one landowner laments the arrival of Ikea for the traffic it will bring. Phil Glassman, a Fort Lauderdale man who owns a few warehouse properties along Adamo Drive, worries his tenants will flee because of the traffic.

"The best place for Ikea is out in the farmland someplace," Glassman said
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thelakelander

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2013, 01:40:57 PM »
The land underneath the Town Center belongs mostly to John Peyton and his dad.

That is the reason it is out there.  They could deliver the footprint and they could guarantee that the infrastructure that makes it work was deployed in a reasonable time.  Before John Peyton became Mayor he was the Chairman of the Board of the JTA, and none of that development happend overnight'.  It was planned and then carefully deployed.

None of this is groundbreaking.  In fact it's actually quite typical.  However, Gate/Skinner (I don't remember which entity previously owned the parcel sold) didn't really deliver the footprint or guarantee the infrastructure.  My memory of the details is a little hazy now but Carter purchased the property and worked with Wakefield Beasley out of Atlanta on developing the footprint.  One of my co-workers from a firm I worked at in Central Florida was a PM at WB back then and this was a project he was involved with.  Before the Markets at TC was constructed, the firm I worked for at the time was hired to design a shopping center on that site for different developer.  I was the PM on that particular project.  That developer eventually passed on the 52-acre site and it was acquired by Pinehill out of Atlanta.  Pinehill then hired Phillips (also out of Atlanta) to design it.

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As it happens it dovetailed nicely with the old Skinner Family ambitions for the area, which is why they donated the land to UNF in the first place.

So looking at the area as a local example of a public private partnership in which the conditions for success were created by deliberate public planning to accomodate the development is a pretty useful model.

Carter had the relationships with the retail outlets and therefore was able to book the tenants, Peyton had the land, Peyton Jr and the JEA provided the public investment into the roads, lights, exit ramps etc, and voila you have a controlled, planned, successful development that is designed to last for about the length of Carter's land lease, at which point the profits will have been exhausted with the least possible amount of investment money expended, Most of the costs will have been externalized and at the end of the lease (which is the actual governing principle, incidentally) there will be very little of value for the landowners to exploit by refusing to renew the arrangement and another massive infusion of capital on the part of the lessee.

It isnt built for neighborhood improvement, its not build to last, and its not built for any other purpose than to provide and engine of money for the handful of investors and the retailers who lease tenant space from the landlease holder.

In 40 years it will be gone.

But how that private partnership actually worked and the smoothness with which it was executed proves that Jville actually has the ability to do what it wants when it is properly motivated and there is a clear enough vision.

I guess where I'm differing on this is, and it might just be semantics on our part, but none of this is ground breaking or unique.  This is how areas like this have been developed for years.  The only thing public about this partnership is we fund the JTBs/9A's allowing property owners to flip their land at higher value to other development groups such as Ben Carter Properties.  This is pretty much the model underway with SR 9B and the Outer Beltway.

Nevertheless, when boiled down to city properties downtown, and even the example above, the city (or original property owner) isn't the one who typically identifies "preferred" retailers.  I believe doing so upfront would be a huge mistake on COJ's part and one we've made before in the past.   Issue an RFP and let the private sector create market rate projects.  For example, going back to your town center example, when I was working on the Markets at TC site, my client was bringing in a Publix.  They ended up passing on that site and Pinehill landed Best Buy and Toys R Us as their main anchors. Gate, Skinner or whomever didn't really care if it was Publix or Best Buy at the site.  The city should be the same way with properties it issues RFPs for.  That's pretty much my original reason for questioning Ock's position of making a short list of retailers at a public level instead of letting the private sector handle that.

stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2013, 01:49:02 PM »
Lake.  You seem to be agreeing with what I am writing by prefacing your post to sound like we disagree?

Ben Carter brought a set of retail relationships and some construction capital to a landownership group that had the political power to deliver infrastructure as an externalized costs.

If you agree that this is how its usually done, are you saying that its usually done that way but cant be done that way in downtown?

Im not sure Im reading your posts right.
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stephendare

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Re: The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2013, 01:50:55 PM »
The only caveat being that I think the construction model is flawed because the techniques are designed not to outlast the leases.

In an urban setting (or any city that cares about its future) this type of construction should be prevented in the core.
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