The Evolution of the Arlington Expressway

[thelakelander]

Here is a blurb from a story about IKEA and Jacksonville that was published last summer:

The South Florida Business Journal’s report that IKEA USA will build a second store in the Miami area — 40 miles from an existing store — begged the question: When will the Swedish home goods mega-retailer open a Jacksonville store?

For Swedish meatball and lingonberry enthusiasts, the answer is unfortunate: Not any time soon.
Joseph Roth, a spokesman for IKEA USA, said he noticed posts on Facebook asking “What about Jacksonville?” when the Miami plans were announced.

“Basically it comes down to population size, and you tend to need approx 2 million people within a 40 to 60-mile radius or trade area,” Roth said. “And you guys aren’t there yet.”

That’s the biggest deciding factor in the store’s expansion plans.

“If you don’t have population size, you don’t really get to the second point,” he said. “It’s basically our stores are so large, they’re very expensive to build and need lots of customers to support them.”

There will now be four IKEA stores between Orlando and Miami: IKEA Orlando, IKEA Tampa, IKEA Sunrise, which is north of Miami, and the new IKEA Miami, to be built in Sweetwater.

“We get inquiries from developers and brokers all the time from Jacksonville, and they say, ‘What can we do?’” Roth said. “Well, double your population. It’s nothing personal. We recognize we have many customers up there, but not enough to support a large IKEA store.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/08/when-will-ikea-come-to-jacksonville.html

From the horse's mouth.  There's nothing the DIA can do to change the fact that the market is too small for this particular retailer.  However, this isn't something the DIA should be overly concerned about, IMO. Just make sure the urban core's environment is business friendly and market rate opportunities will present themselves.

[Ocklawaha]

A neighborhood no doubt, a neighborhood that has lost guidance, direction and life.  I don't consider offering some unique proposals and incentives as bribes to fool anyone into anything.  They are savvy enough to read the demographics for themselves, you stated a 60 mile radius and I said if that is true we are within that window. All I'm suggesting is that we get out of the box every other downtown in the country is in, the status quo obviously hasn't worked in a downtown since about 1960.  Go to them with a plan, a real plan, explain how the pieces could fit together for everyones mutual benefit, strength in numbers. Invite Simon and the other operators out there to come in and treat this downtown segment (yet to be identified) as a property. Tell them this is the chance to make a new town center out of a real "TOWN CENTER". I just don't see why this is bad or why we should stand in line with every Pittsburgh, Tampa and Memphis that comes down the pike - We should stand out!

[thelakelander]

You don't think this city hasn't invited the owners of SJTC to attempt to do something downtown?  Believe me, Ben Carter and Simon have already been contacted.  In the 1980s, it was Rouse.  The 1990s, we decided to take out LaVilla. In the 2000s, it was LandMar and the Shipyards. We see how all that turned out.  On the other hand, King Street has bloomed to life in the middle of a recession from several "little" local players who've been excluded out of the downtown game.

Downtown revitalization is one of the easiest problems to fix in Jacksonville, IMO. There is a national wide trend of people flocking back to urban cores all across the country.  It's where Echo Boomers (a generation that's larger than the Baby Boom population) want to be.

The only reason downtown has struggled to cash in is because of us.  We've torn down most of the existing building fabric that was suitable for urban pioneers.  We've implemented silly policies to where small business can barely even advertise themselves at street level and we've continued to approve projects that are deadly at street level (Parador garage for example).  Then instead of following the natural revitalization process, we continue to swing wildly for expensive one hit home run projects (Shipyards for example) instead of manufacturing points with bunts, singles, walks, stolen bases and doubles.

The main thing we need to stop is our continued actions that has limited market rate development from taking place. We've been the problem by continuing to enforce policy that makes the CBD hostile to business and pedestrians.  The answer to this problem isn't giving riverfront property and $20 million to Bass Pro or Target.  It's not even trying to recreate the wheel to be "different" from the Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Memphis. It's really as simple as making the decision to stop tripping over our own two feet. Set a plan but that plan should not have an entity with no development experience out front pre-determining private sector uses or preferring certain retailers/developers over another.  Setting you vision, development regulations, streamlining the permitting process, investing in public infrastructure, etc. is one thing.  But grabbing and reserving blocks for preferred  user whoever is another. 

[stephendare]

You don't think this city hasn't invited the owners of SJTC to attempt to do something downtown?  Believe me, Ben Carter and Simon have already been contacted.  In the 1980s, it was Rouse.  The 1990s, we decided to take out LaVilla. In the 2000s, it was LandMar and the Shipyards. We see how all that turned out.  On the other hand, King Street has bloomed to life in the middle of a recession from several "little" local players who've been excluded out of the downtown game.

Downtown revitalization is one of the easiest problems to fix in Jacksonville, IMO. There is a national wide trend of people flocking back to urban cores all across the country.  It's where Echo Boomers (a generation that's larger than the Baby Boom population) want to be.

The only reason downtown has struggled to cash in is because of us.  We've torn down most of the existing building fabric that was suitable for urban pioneers.  We've implemented silly policies to where small business can barely even advertise themselves at street level and we've continued to approve projects that are deadly at street level (Parador garage for example).  Then instead of following the natural revitalization process, we continue to swing wildly for expensive one hit home run projects (Shipyards for example) instead of manufacturing points with bunts, singles, walks, stolen bases and doubles.

The main thing we need to stop is our continued actions that has limited market rate development from taking place. We've been the problem by continuing to enforce policy that makes the CBD hostile to business and pedestrians.  The answer to this problem isn't giving riverfront property and $20 million to Bass Pro or Target.  It's not even trying to recreate the wheel to be "different" from the Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Memphis. It's really as simple as making the decision to stop tripping over our own two feet. Set a plan but that plan should not have an entity with no development experience out front pre-determining uses or preferring certain retailers over another.  Setting you vision, development regulations, streamlining the permitting process, investing in public infrastructure, etc. is one thing.  But grabbing and reserving blocks for preferred  user whoever is another.

It is a fact that Ben Carter has been part of the discussion about downtown.  I sat on a committee founded by Elaine Brown with Mr. Carter specifically for the purpose of treating downtown like a mall and leasing the spaces using a regional shopping center management approach.

Peyton simply was not interested.

It wasnt because the idea wouldnt work.  Obviously the approach works for malls across the country.

It just wasnt on Peyton's list of things to do.

I certainly agree with Lake that the downtown is a toxic bubble for the retail environment.  Until the policies that make development impossible are removed, nothing will happen.

But truly, the discussion about IKEA would be worth pursuing on a multi pronged level.

It doesnt matter really what the store has stated into a vacuum at a meeting.  Given a good proposal and a clear way forward to profit, most any business will give something a try.

Really the better question is whether or not an IKEA is worth it in terms of value as an 'Anchor' tenant to drive development downtown.

I think the argument could be made either way, as in anything though, the ultimate success would depend on whether or not there is a clear vision going forward and whether or not the Jacksonville business leadership actually knows how to use an 'anchor' for its intended purposes.

If you just bring an IKEA here, and declare Mission Accomplished, then it would be pointless.

[thelakelander]

A neighborhood no doubt, a neighborhood that has lost guidance, direction and life.  I don't consider offering some unique proposals and incentives as bribes to fool anyone into anything.

I just wanted to mention that there is nothing unique about issuing an RFP for city property or going after certain retailers, throwing incentives at developers, etc.  It's been done in Jacksonville and all across the country. Unique would be flipping the script and giving everyone investing/moving in the urban core a 10-year property tax abatement (ex. Philly/Cincinnati), or taking Bass Pro's $20 million and giving it to people willing to move to downtown (ex. Detroit).

They are savvy enough to read the demographics for themselves, you stated a 60 mile radius and I said if that is true we are within that window.

It was IKEA's people saying Jax is too small.  I only repeated the information as an example of why it's not prudent to reserve downtown property for a preferred retailer like IKEA.  This model leaves you with a permanent vacant lot.

[thelakelander]

It is a fact that Ben Carter has been part of the discussion about downtown.  I sat on a committee founded by Elaine Brown with Mr. Carter specifically for the purpose of treating downtown like a mall and leasing the spaces using a regional shopping center management approach.

Peyton simply was not interested.

It wasnt because the idea wouldnt work.  Obviously the approach works for malls across the country.

To be honest, I don't blame Peyton.  Downtown is a neighborhood in the same fashion that Riverside, Brooklyn, and the Eastside are.  Urban communities tend to grow organically and contain a variety of property owners with different ideologies (ex. Bostwicks vs Rich at Petra Management).  A mall is operated by a single property owner.  If we want to get the mall concept right, start small by getting with Sleiman and resolving the Landing's issues.

But truly, the discussion about IKEA would be worth pursuing on a multi pronged level.

It doesnt matter really what the store has stated into a vacuum at a meeting.  Given a good proposal and a clear way forward to profit, most any business will give something a try.

Really the better question is whether or not an IKEA is worth it in terms of value as an 'Anchor' tenant to drive development downtown.

Let's start here.  I'll admit, I've kind of jumped on Ock, probably out of a little frustration from the JAX 2025 downtown table I sat at yesterday.  My head almost popped as I heard people say the answer to downtown was to tear down things like the Bostwick Building and replace them with Apple stores, Publix, and St. Louis Arches.  I get kind of frustrated when we strive to make revitalization more complicated and expensive than it has to be.

But let's address your question.  Let's say our market could support an IKEA.  The typical american IKEA store is around 300,000 square feet or five football fields combined.  It has less interaction with the street than a suburban Walmart.  Where would you put such a category killer in downtown and why?  I'd argue, you'd be better off placing the Lowe's on Cassat Avenue in the middle of downtown than you would putting huge category killer like IKEA there.

[stephendare]

Well this is a better question I think.

Would an IKEA drive further development.

Well there is an easily found answer to that question:  What does google earth say about the surrounding areas where other IKEA's have been built?

[thelakelander]

IKEA isn't the type of store you're walking up to.  It's like a Walmart on steroids.  It's about as self contained of a store as they come.  They even have their own restaurants and even will watch your kids for free while you shop. I have not come across any IKEA in America being built and resulting in an urban development boom.  Google Earth shows big boxes with large surface parking lots.  Atlanta's IKEA was built as a part of a mixed use infill project but it's the only part of the development that's pretty disconnected from everything else and autocentric. 

[Charles Hunter]

We must be talking about the west end of the Arlington Expressway?

[thelakelander]

Lol.  If the market could support an IKEA, it would be better if it were at some suburban commercial spot in need of redevelopment like Regency Square.

[Ocklawaha]

IKEA in Brooklyn NY is such a store Lake, they are the spearpoint of the Red Hook Renewal a project that might include streetcar.  Ikea is served by water taxi's and there is a limited parking garage which is usually at capacity. My argument has always been had they done this at the Shipyards, the JEA site or in LaVilla or Brooklyn in Jax, they would have even better exposure. Our Skyline visible from I-95 is a veritable shout out to passers by.

Again, I'm NOT talking about tearing down a damn thing, I think you know that. I'm just saying we could say, look how IKEA fits this idea, now what others could also fit that site and need? identify the targets and go after them, be it a Pier One, IKEA, urban Target, or a dozen others.

You speak of Jacksonville letting itself die, while talking life to death, and we agree. Organic development is fantastic, get the streetcar up and running, extend the Skyway and add commuter rail and we'd have all of the organic development we could handle. We simply need to be better and more creative then the competition.

Imagine Flagler developing LaVilla?  You know we COULD pull that off tomorrow if we had anyone with vision downtown.

ALL PHOTOS RED HOOK NY

[stephendare]

But certainly we must all agree that this is the best way in which to view these kinds of locations, co locations, and relocations right?

Is there any use to an IKEA being considered an 'anchor' in the effort to create a walkable urban environment?  Well it doesnt appear that any of their current iterations have ever resulted in such an outcome.

Now perhaps there is some merit in the idea that Ock seems to be suggesting: to "big box" out the eastern end of downtown where the blasted remains of the old industrial district sits.  Perhaps there is some use to that.

Perhaps such a strategy would bring the suburbanites back into the downtown by creating a huge retail area out of a huge tract of land that will not be used for a generation or more?  Didnt the Town Center start with the big boxes first? (honest question, i was busy in springfield at the time and never went out there)

Is there any example of an IKEA which has caused redensification or urbanization?

[stephendare]

IKEA in Brooklyn NY is such a store Lake, they are the spearpoint of the Red Hook Renewal a project that might include streetcar.  Ikea is served by water taxi's and there is a limited parking garage which is usually at capacity. My argument has always been had they done this at the Shipyards, the JEA site or in LaVilla or Brooklyn in Jax, they would have even better exposure. Our Skyline visible from I-95 is a veritable shout out to passers by.

Again, I'm NOT talking about tearing down a damn thing, I think you know that. I'm just saying we could say, look how IKEA fits this idea, now what others could also fit that site and need? identify the targets and go after them, be it a Pier One, IKEA, urban Target, or a dozen others.

what have you got in mind here Ock?

Can you create a diagram or a map that would illustrate it?

[thelakelander]

IKEA in Brooklyn NY is such a store Lake, they are the spearpoint of the Red Hook Renewal a project that might include streetcar.  Ikea is served by water taxi's and there is a limited parking garage which is usually at capacity.

Why don't you show an aerial of that Brooklyn IKEA so we can see the huge surface parking lot on the waterfront?

My argument has always been had they done this at the Shipyards, the JEA site or in LaVilla or Brooklyn in Jax, they would have even better exposure. Our Skyline visible from I-95 is a veritable shout out to passers by.

You can't find a property in Brooklyn or LaVilla large enough for an IKEA without taking out buildings and the street grid. The IKEA box is so big, it won't even fit on the Shipyards site without filling in a chunk of the river and turning most of the rest of the property into a parking lot. 

Again, I'm NOT talking about tearing down a damn thing, I think you know that. I'm just saying we could say, look how IKEA fits this idea, now what others could also fit that site and need? identify the targets and go after them, be it a Pier One, IKEA, urban Target, or a dozen others.

I don't think you're realizing how much property such a box takes up for a use that doesn't encourage walkability.  Nevertheless, my main point is don't waste time identifying targets like Pier One, IKEA, urban Target, etc.  Let the private sector respond to what the market will bear (ex. Pope and Land's project in Brooklyn) and work with them to make sure their developments fit into an overall urban footprint and long term vision. 

You speak of Jacksonville letting itself die, while talking life to death, and we agree. Organic development is fantastic, get the streetcar up and running, extend the Skyway and add commuter rail and we'd have all of the organic development we could handle. We simply need to be better and more creative then the competition.

There is no competition to be more creative against.  People want to be in downtown Jacksonville.  Empower them to do so.

Imagine Flagler developing LaVilla?  You know we COULD pull that off tomorrow if we had anyone with vision downtown.

Flagler is already downtown. I worked for two years in their property on Prudential Drive, right next door to Kings Avenue Station.  Before I'd give them property in LaVilla, perhaps they can experiment with TOD on the big surface parking lot they already own next door to Kings Avenue.

[thelakelander]

^With that said, if the market was large enough, they'd be an idea tenant for a redeveloped Regency Square Mall, assuming the empty west end of the mall was demolished.