Southside Construction Update - January 2013

[thelakelander]

Sadly, the Town Center area is nowhere near the density of Tysons Corner....even though it was clearly developed around the car, SR 123 (Chain Bridge Road) and SR 7 (Leesburg Pike) serve as the spines of the area and can be tamed for better pedestrian access....I think a better comparison in FL to Tysons Corner is Tampa's Westshore district.

That said, Town center can be densified too...its all about replacing surface parking with garages....which is what has happened at Tysons Corner over the years

Downtown Dadeland in Kendall, FL (suburban Miami) is a good example of how an area like SJTC can increase in density around a transit line.




San Diego's Mission Valley corridor is a great example of a transit friendly suburban corridor very similar in length and land uses to the JTB corridor:


LRT stop at Sleiman styled suburban Target anchored strip mall.

[Captain Zissou]

I can't find the deerwood park south development online anywhere.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, just so everyone knows the roots of New Center in Detroit. The Hamilton, Woodward and Oakland Avenue's Streetcar line as well as some crosstown segments along Davison and a series of small return loops in the same area, all served New Center, MI.  So did the interurban lines. 

[ProjectMaximus]

I can't find the deerwood park south development online anywhere.

Not sure which one youre talking about? Here's the one next to Tattersall: http://www.theprestonpartnership.com/?project=deerwood-park-2

And by Deerwood Place: http://scottarchitects.com/deerwood-lake-loft-apartments-jacksonville-florida/

[rjr120]

Just a thought, but how about including a small image for the location of each project so those of us not that familiar with the area have an idea of where these places are?  I'm thinking a small thumbnail type shot from Google Maps with a pin where the construction site is located.  I know I don't get over to the Southside much so I know I would be appreciative of a feature like this.

[thelakelander]

Good point.  That's probably needed for the urban core updates as well.

[ProjectMaximus]

i like that idea a lot.

http://maps.google.com/help/maps/getmaps/plot-one.html

[TD*]

This is really amazing all the growth that is going out in the burbs in Jax.

We are seeing a lot of growth here in Tallahassee as well.

[jcjohnpaint]

I was in Tallahassee the other day.  I couldn't believe how much growth was going on in and around DT

[Captain Zissou]

I can't find the deerwood park south development online anywhere.

Not sure which one youre talking about? Here's the one next to Tattersall: http://www.theprestonpartnership.com/?project=deerwood-park-2

And by Deerwood Place: http://scottarchitects.com/deerwood-lake-loft-apartments-jacksonville-florida/

Thanks for this.  It's nearly blashemy, but these two projects are adding density to that area, which i think is a decent thing.  The Deerwood Lake Lofts will be directly behind and adjacent to existing retail, they have integrated structured parking, and the surrounding land is completely developed.  The other project is surrounded by developed land, it is near work and play, and the design isn't too sprawled out.  If we can't have development in the urban core, I would rather see existing activity centers densify and approach walkability than mow down pine forests for new development.

[TD*]

Yea. our core is definitely growing quickly!

[simms3]

Heads out of sands?  This is not a lot of construction activity, historically for the market/submarket or relative to similar SE metros right now.  This is not an edge city by real estate industry standards.  The vast bulk of Jax activity is occuring there on the SS right now, but it's not a lot of "REIT" capital.  Jax is still a value-add and opportunistic town attractive to retail and a smidge of institutional capital playing in the value-add/opportunity/smaller than gateway market arena.  FL as a whole outside of SoFla is not attractive to most debt/equity due to lack of stable or quality job growth, which is the key drive of multifamily development.

Jacksonville is fortunate to have Mayo, an expanding research hospital group with a campus in Jax that benefits from warm climate (but falls prey to lack of direct air connections).  However, MOB is like multifamily right now in that demand is high, debt is attractive and available, credit name-brand hospital groups are backing, and yet there is no MOB market in Jax.  It's still all public/private hospital development competing in the same queu for regulatory approval and some degree of public financing, which tells me that the metro is behind the times and lagging there, too.

And industrial growth?  Don't pay much attention, but haven't seen any FL cities in the headlines, which tells me that bets are off even with port expansion projects.  Hotel growth?  Jax not a tourist city, no CC expansion (which is driving most countrywide booms right now despite the headlines on this site that convention business is apparently going away).  Retail growth?  Simply there to serve population growth, but the market doesn't seem to be advancing as a bright spot whereby capital can chase disposable income growth, retirees, tourism, etc etc.  IOW Nordstrom isn't arriving because Jax became wealthy and a higher per capita spending town (or spending/income growth town), it's arriving because Jax is now over 1.5 million people and more in the region with no Nordstrom, an expanding brand with access to incredible and cheap capital and more flexibility in catering stores to areas (not to mention the best land for retail in the city is still cheap...you can't find land like that around the SJTC for as cheap in Nashville or Orlando or Raleigh or Charlotte).

There is no potential for the SS to resemble Rosslyn-Balston, or any other significant edge city (at least for decades to come).  Rosslyn-Balston is literally 1.5-3.5 miles from the heart of DT DC, the 3rd-4th largest and arguably one of the top 5 most attractive CBD investments in the country (where above market GSA leases and priced out credit tenants get pushed to nearby edge cities such as in that corridor or Montgomery County, MD).

Until Southpoint forms a cohesive plan and Southpoint landowners join to form a strong BID or CID, nothing will be done to shape the area into a new-urbanist suburb (aka edge city in the industry mold/standard).  Right now it's simply the ok side of town, much like East Memphis/Germantown, or south Nashville into Williamson County, or the north side of Orlando into Seminole County/Altamonte Springs (but not even there yet), etc etc.  In other words, it's merely the "good side of town" where businesses and residents can locate safely, but it's not anywhere close to resembling an "edge city" that functions as a CBD away from a CBD.

Another good edge city example is Buckhead in Atlanta, which is 5 miles from Midtown and 6-7 miles from downtown, and is nothing more than a prestigious vertical suburb with a degree of walkability.  What makes it so desirable to certain firms is its emphasis on acting as the hub for FIRE firms in the SE.  What's becoming more and more important in CBDs and edge cities/submarkets across the country is specialization.  It's very important to have certain cohesive industries lumped together.  Some cities such as NYC, SF/Bay, and Boston have done this for a century, automatically.  Other cities such as Atlanta have adapted to this style for ~20 years now.  It will be an important factor in developing edge cities, submarkets, and CBD districts going forward.  Jax does not have this (it's frankly too small, but if it were serious about growing it would focus certain symbiotic industries in certain areas and the government AND the private sector would plan growth together).

[thelakelander]

Like Buckhead and Heathrow (Seminole County), it's an Edge City by the standards of the man who came up with the term and definition and characteristics.  You don't have to be a Rosslyn-Balston, which has more office space than DT Atlanta, to meet the minimum definition of the term.  There are also several colder Edge Cities out their such as Detroit's Southfield. It may not be the hottest for the real estate industry but the industry's current trends aren't the determining factor.

[simms3]

With a definition as vague as the one posed in the article, there are edge cities all over the place.  It's not what's on paper that counts, but rather what's in practice and what people IN the industry of putting to use these "planning terms" think.  Right now I see no evidence that apartment owners are advertising their development as being in some desirable or happening "edge city", as is the case with apartment advertising and office space advertising in DC.  I see "southside", "near SJTC", "convenient to work", which to me falls in line with being on the "good side of town", which every city has.

Perhaps *industry* leaders in Jax who are in the business of building stuff, leasing stuff, financing stuff, etc should convene and start thinking of the Gate Parkway/Southpoint area as an "edge city", but ultimately the damage of planning to low density has already been done and it will take mega solutions in city departments and working with a certain kind of credible and well capitalized developer (who don't really exist yet in Jax) to sort of push the area going forward into higher density and into having more traditional "edge city" characteristics.

BTW DT Atlanta has less than 20 million SF of private leasable office space and is the smallest submarket within its own metro, as well.  I guess it's a good comparison to use as people not in the know would either think of DT/Midtown as one (and therefore quite large) or they think DT Atlanta should be super large (not having visited), but it's not really the focal point of the city, and hasn't been for 20 years.  In fact, some brokerages lump DT and Midtown together and call that the CBD (in which case any edge city in the country is dwarfed), and some even lump Buckhead in due to all 3 being in the city limits (the 3 together have more office space than FiDi of San Francisco, which is quite large itself...again DT SF is actually just near center of government and "civic center" and is not the best of areas, misnomers abound).

[thelakelander]

^Like Downtowns, there are Edge Cities all over the place.  They've been around for well over 50 years.  Some just happen to be much larger than others.