Author Topic: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped  (Read 20867 times)

Dog Walker

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2013, 04:35:04 PM »
Living in the countryside is no guarantee of quiet either.  Years ago we lived in a rural area near Tampa and frequently had to listen to a dirt track a few miles away with races that went on until two and three in the morning.  You had to shout at one another to be understood INSIDE the house.  Those dirt track cars had no mufflers and were incredibly loud.  I don't know how the people actually at the track could stand it.
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Bill Hoff

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2013, 09:19:57 AM »
Seems like adjusting the decibel level would do the trick.

strider

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2013, 10:03:55 AM »
Noise is everywhere, no getting away from it.  Unless you get out to very remote places and then the crickets can be almost too much to bear.  I was saddened to see that a study was actually done over train whistles.  100K per crossing?  Does anyone realize that in the end, things like that cost everyone of us the money it costs to do it? To change what has been around for literally 100's of years?  Airports often have noise polices.  Are you aware that those policies actually add to your risk during take off and landings? To satisfy the complaints from a few who chose to buy by the airports to start with?  Frankly, I don't like the fact that the fireworks not only cost me personally (my tax dollars) but also cause others to fire their guns to join the fun. Should we ban the fireworks because I complain about it?  Not hardly.  At some point, common sense has to kick in.

From reading this thread, it seems that those that blocked the original amphitheatre may have actually added to the problem.  If we don't have a properly designed amphitheatre, just reducing the decibels may aggravate the issue.  Bad "white noise" can be worse than hearing the music.  Would a properly designed and built amphitheatre not still allow a proper concert experience while allowing the decibel levels to be controlled better?  In other words, would it not be easier to control the sound levels for everyone? 

Adding things like temporary sound walls put up and taken down at every concert seems like a large additional expense that could effectively kill the site for concerts anyway.  A permanent one paid for by us taxpayers kills the park in other ways.  The solution may be to go back to the original idea and rebuild the amphitheatre properly and then everyone wins.  The complaining residents get their reduced noise levels and the concert goers get more concerts.  And perhaps the city gets a better revenue stream.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 10:06:37 AM by strider »
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Noone

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2013, 10:56:38 AM »
^ Thanks for coming on here to seek public comment Scott....just wish this had been done prior to filing the legislation

Withdraw the legislation. You did it with Halloween. We continue to just totally crush the Public Trust.  We now have a brand new DIA/CRA in the USA with a 20 plus mile Authority Zone and this now needs to be the number one topic for discussion for the foggy Vision of 2025 at JCCI.

Councilman Redman, Scott, Just share the bid amounts for the slab that needs to be poured for the new clock. Does anyone on Metrojax have any clue as to how many bids have been received for this? I'm serious. This out of control quagmire is happening right now in Waterways. We are so LOST. We are the biggest JOKE in the state of Florida as it relates to FIND.

Scott, Don or Don, Scott you were the Chair of Waterways last year and we left $500,000 of our ad valorem property tax revenue on the table and because of the Backroom stuff that you all are so proud of we now have 2012-402. Share with everyone the status of the Pottsburg Creek dredge. let's hear some NOISE on this one. Good or Bad.

In the meantime. Ben Warner JCCI we now need to kayak Downtown not only before 2025 but at the Super Duper non identified super Mayor Brown kayak access point at Palmer Terrace Park in Dist. 4 which gives everyone immediate and direct access at low and high tide to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initiative.

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Tacachale

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2013, 11:29:40 AM »
Noise is everywhere, no getting away from it.  Unless you get out to very remote places and then the crickets can be almost too much to bear.  I was saddened to see that a study was actually done over train whistles.  100K per crossing?  Does anyone realize that in the end, things like that cost everyone of us the money it costs to do it? To change what has been around for literally 100's of years?  Airports often have noise polices.  Are you aware that those policies actually add to your risk during take off and landings? To satisfy the complaints from a few who chose to buy by the airports to start with?  Frankly, I don't like the fact that the fireworks not only cost me personally (my tax dollars) but also cause others to fire their guns to join the fun. Should we ban the fireworks because I complain about it?  Not hardly.  At some point, common sense has to kick in.

From reading this thread, it seems that those that blocked the original amphitheatre may have actually added to the problem.  If we don't have a properly designed amphitheatre, just reducing the decibels may aggravate the issue.  Bad "white noise" can be worse than hearing the music.  Would a properly designed and built amphitheatre not still allow a proper concert experience while allowing the decibel levels to be controlled better?  In other words, would it not be easier to control the sound levels for everyone? 

Adding things like temporary sound walls put up and taken down at every concert seems like a large additional expense that could effectively kill the site for concerts anyway.  A permanent one paid for by us taxpayers kills the park in other ways.  The solution may be to go back to the original idea and rebuild the amphitheatre properly and then everyone wins.  The complaining residents get their reduced noise levels and the concert goers get more concerts.  And perhaps the city gets a better revenue stream.

There's no question things are worse now than if we had a real ampitheater with modern acoustics and sound dampening, as well as an invested contractor overseeing concerts and holding them to the rules. Unfortunately it's unlikely to ever happen, due to the influence we allow the complainers, among other things. In this case we're just going to have to hold to fix what we've got and make sure we don't lose it.
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SoundGuy

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2013, 06:49:36 PM »
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.


    I am pretty sure that this ordinance is being pushed under the guise of noise complaints, it even says so in the bill summary. I am sure someone was walking out of church on a Sunday during Welcome to Rockville or The Big Ticket when they could hear F bombs ripping across the river. They ran to their Councilman, who they know is a avid member and usher at First Baptist Church (aka-city hall), they know this because on the coj.net site that is really his only acheivement, that and the fact that he has kept a barber shop running for 40 years. Now here comes Good "Ol Don to the rescue. These are the same type of people that have boycotted movies right out of theaters in our city. If this was just about noise pollution on a school night, then Jags and Suns night time home games are all prime for the picking, as is the fireworks and mortars used at these events.
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events. If you push an unacceptable decibel limit on the entertainment district, your precious sporting events will have to comply also(rules are rules). That rules also appies to setting an end time earlier than 11pm, since night time games that start at 8 sometimes run until midnight. I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

Adam W

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2013, 03:32:33 AM »
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

I doubt that. Most of the complainants are probably people who live across the water from the Park and who are actually impacted by the noise. We may not agree with Redman's attempts to stop concerts in the Park (I think it's ludicrous), but that doesn't mean the people living across the water aren't actually impacted by the noise. Whether or not their complaints are reasonable is another issue. I think they may be reasonable, or more accurately, I cannot answer one way or another, as I do not live in their houses and don't have to deal with it myself - it wouldn't be fair of me to dismiss the concern out of hand.

The better solution would be to find a workable compromise. A curfew for concerts at the Park might work as well as perhaps some sort of rule regarding decibel levels - as suggested - might help. I don't agree with your contention that it would have to cover Jaguars games as well, as there is no reason to believe that a rule or ordinance couldn't be drafted in a way that would allow for exceptions or have specific language targeting a particular venue. But I'm not a lawyer.

Ideally we should have a fit-for-purpose amphitheater in the Park. But that seems even further away now in light of this present complaint.

triclops i

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2013, 03:53:58 AM »
If you moved the amphitheater from metro to say....the half mile of empty space between metro and berkman plaza....would that make a difference?

tufsu1

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2013, 08:28:39 AM »
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events.

huh?

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2013, 11:17:49 AM »
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events.

huh?

Seems clear enough to me. The T&C riders on most major artists' contracts require a certain sound setup, if you can't deliver that, including what they consider to be acceptable amplification, then the artist generally won't sign. It's that simple. What performer wants to show up and have to yell over a crowd? It's a concert with thousands of people in a crowd, it's not a freestyle poetry reading.


tufsu1

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2013, 11:47:23 AM »
so the "safe operating decibel level" referred to is a minimum?

SoundGuy

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2013, 12:07:33 PM »
so the "safe operating decibel level" referred to is a minimum?

That is correct, this is usually based off of not wanting to cause permanent hearing loss to you fans. 

tufsu1

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2013, 01:28:40 PM »
so it isn't a minimum...but instead a maximum?

if that's the case, then reaching a compromise should be pretty easy.

SoundGuy

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2013, 04:45:35 PM »
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

I doubt that. Most of the complainants are probably people who live across the water from the Park and who are actually impacted by the noise. We may not agree with Redman's attempts to stop concerts in the Park (I think it's ludicrous), but that doesn't mean the people living across the water aren't actually impacted by the noise. Whether or not their complaints are reasonable is another issue. I think they may be reasonable, or more accurately, I cannot answer one way or another, as I do not live in their houses and don't have to deal with it myself - it wouldn't be fair of me to dismiss the concern out of hand.

The better solution would be to find a workable compromise. A curfew for concerts at the Park might work as well as perhaps some sort of rule regarding decibel levels - as suggested - might help. I don't agree with your contention that it would have to cover Jaguars games as well, as there is no reason to believe that a rule or ordinance couldn't be drafted in a way that would allow for exceptions or have specific language targeting a particular venue. But I'm not a lawyer.

Ideally we should have a fit-for-purpose amphitheater in the Park. But that seems even further away now in light of this present complaint.

Actually, I found out today that there is a particular church that made a complaint due to hearing offensive language at about 6pm, which happen to be around the same time their service started. The main complaint from a homeowner is coming from a woman that bought a house right on the river in 2004. She is the same one that started putting together meetings at Havana Jax. The complaint from her was more about being outside and hearing it, not from inside the home. I know someone who lives on the river near BK, who has double pane windows in his house, says that he can hear Jags game announcers better than the concerts, depending on the wind. I am sure that an ordinance could be drafted with the proper language for the stadium to not have to abide by laws set for everyone else, but then you end up with a whole different legal matter on your hands.
 
      I agree that the construction of a venue that would curb the sound issue would be nice, but I am pretty sure that the city is broke after the courthouse debacle. Besides, just like when budget cuts to schools occur, the first thing to go is music and arts programs because they don't make the school any money, just do the math on SMG's parking lots alone.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2013, 06:51:50 PM »
If you are sitting in a boat or in St. Nicholas, a sound coming from the north shore will sound louder than the same sound heard by a person on land. Sound can be amplified when it travels over water.

The reason is that the water cools the air above its surface, which then slows down the sound waves near the surface. This causes refraction or bending of the sound wave, such that more sound reaches the boat passenger or St Nicholas resident. Sound waves skimming the surface of the water can add to the amplification effect, if the water is calm.

The speed of sound is the distance travelled during a unit of time by a sound wave propagating through an elastic medium. In dry air at 68 °F, the speed of sound is 1,126 ft/s. This is 768 mph, or approximately one mile in five seconds.

However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air. It travels about 4.3 times as fast in water 4868.766 f/s, and nearly 15 times as fast in iron 16,797.9 f/s than in air at 68F degrees.

Just hold the concerts on wet windy days when the water is at a chop and you'll have no complaints.