Author Topic: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale  (Read 16119 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« on: September 18, 2012, 03:09:05 AM »
Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale



Riverside/Avondale Preservation explains what large scale development means for their neighborhood and shares their view on Mellow Mushroom's plans for a new location on St. Johns Avenue.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-sep-large-scale-development-and-riversideavondale

simms3

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 08:00:53 AM »
No matter how MM chops up the facade, the fact remains that RAP has forced them into a suburban design despite RAP's claim otherwise.  Also, MM was not setting a "bad precedent" with its original plan.  It was simply following in the footsteps and might I add toned down version of Monty's, Casbah, Bluefish, Brick, Biscottis.  Instead, RAP has set a precedent of anti-business regulation within Avondale's premiere commercial corridor and has prevented a positive paradigm shift where the neighborhood becomes easier and more convenient for walk ups than driving in.

IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design.
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If_I_Loved_you

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 08:05:30 AM »
No matter how MM chops up the facade, the fact remains that RAP has forced them into a suburban design despite RAP's claim otherwise.  Also, MM was not setting a "bad precedent" with its original plan.  It was simply following in the footsteps and might I add toned down version of Monty's, Casbah, Bluefish, Brick, Biscottis.  Instead, RAP has set a precedent of anti-business regulation within Avondale's premiere commercial corridor and has prevented a positive paradigm shift where the neighborhood becomes easier and more convenient for walk ups than driving in.

IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design.
OMG this is right on the money! "IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design."

simms3

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 08:15:34 AM »
And then the hypocrisy that is most disturbing relates to noise and congestion.

1) There are MMs everywhere.  People will not pack the streets with their cars to come eat at MM if they are not already from within the area.  People from Mandarin and the beaches come in to eat at Biscottis or the Brick, but would not come all the way in for a MM because they have one.  That is such a false claim.

Point 2, if they are from within the area, some might walk.  Can we at least hope for more people walking instead of driving 3 blocks?  Force it with less parking if you have to.  And enforce tow zones.  As has been pointed out, nobody's illegally parked cars are getting towed.  My God, as soon as I moved away from Jax I totally realized that the rest of the world takes drinking and driving seriously and that your car WILL be towed if parked improperly, even for a short time.  Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).  I have dozens of quarters in my car for meters that still take them.  It's amazing what enforcing the law can do to change people's habits!!

God, everybody on the road in Jax is drunkkk all the time, especially in Ortega and Avondale and the beaches where kids and adults alike get away with murder.  Take that privilege away.  There are no cabs in town because nobody feels like they must take one.  As soon as the law starts getting enforced, all of sudden you'll see a line of cabs blocks long at every bar district waiting to take people home, making the streets that much safer and reducing the need for massive parking and people peeing and parking on people's private lots.

2) The noise issue.  MM does not have a noisy location and isn't known as a noisy restaurant.  If RAP's claim that residents and business owners are so concerned about noise pollution, why don't they shut down all the other bars and restaurants?

I'm so tired of the hypocrisy.  If people have arguments against MM, make them good points that can't be easily debated without so much as a thought, or just be blunt and state your opinion that you want the neighborhood to be quiet and boring or that you're afraid of the business competition, etc.
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mbwright

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 09:02:10 AM »
slow learner-- "2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times. "

But I do agree, drunk driving in Jax is certainly an issue, especially with $1.00 beer nights for some events.

mbwright

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 09:04:59 AM »
For the most part, I do think that RAP has done far more good than bad.  The majority of the historic properties are in place, and not like parts of Springfield.  With any organization, some can go too far.  I really think the MM project should look a bit more historic, to match the existing properties.  Be careful what you wish for.  Chase all of the current or potential business out, and what will be left? 

If_I_Loved_you

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 09:05:06 AM »
And then the hypocrisy that is most disturbing relates to noise and congestion.

1) There are MMs everywhere.  People will not pack the streets with their cars to come eat at MM if they are not already from within the area.  People from Mandarin and the beaches come in to eat at Biscottis or the Brick, but would not come all the way in for a MM because they have one.  That is such a false claim.

Point 2, if they are from within the area, some might walk.  Can we at least hope for more people walking instead of driving 3 blocks?  Force it with less parking if you have to.  And enforce tow zones.  As has been pointed out, nobody's illegally parked cars are getting towed.  My God, as soon as I moved away from Jax I totally realized that the rest of the world takes drinking and driving seriously and that your car WILL be towed if parked improperly, even for a short time.  Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).  I have dozens of quarters in my car for meters that still take them.  It's amazing what enforcing the law can do to change people's habits!!

God, everybody on the road in Jax is drunkkk all the time, especially in Ortega and Avondale and the beaches where kids and adults alike get away with murder.  Take that privilege away.  There are no cabs in town because nobody feels like they must take one.  As soon as the law starts getting enforced, all of sudden you'll see a line of cabs blocks long at every bar district waiting to take people home, making the streets that much safer and reducing the need for massive parking and people peeing and parking on people's private lots.

2) The noise issue.  MM does not have a noisy location and isn't known as a noisy restaurant.  If RAP's claim that residents and business owners are so concerned about noise pollution, why don't they shut down all the other bars and restaurants?

I'm so tired of the hypocrisy.  If people have arguments against MM, make them good points that can't be easily debated without so much as a thought, or just be blunt and state your opinion that you want the neighborhood to be quiet and boring or that you're afraid of the business competition, etc.
A lot of the residents of Avondale/Ortega act like spoiled children!

jaxjags

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 09:12:05 AM »
Having lived in ATL for 15 years I found this RAP article very insightful as to why JAX cannot develop vibrant neighborhoods. There is a huge amount of infill projects in ATL. They  are as varied and mixed, yet I cannot remember one that I thought was offensive, didn't fit the neighborhood or did not provide benefits to the neighborhood.

Also, I find it funny that RAP is concerned about parking. In most big cities these areas tend to serve those who live close by. That is the definition of a vibrant neighborhood.

I have a feeling they just don't want a MM. See comment about closing up the patio area on the front and closing the window doors. OK, so lets close The Brick, Biscotti's, Blue Fish, etc.

jaxlore

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 09:20:09 AM »
This whole thing is ridiculous. It's a Mellow Mushroom not a night club. Get over it avondale.

Captain Zissou

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »
Ok, so I did some editing. Though this sounds like Know Growth's normal sentence structure (or lack thereof), read through the quote below and tell me does this sound like it applies to a century old streetcar neighborhood.... Or Deercreek? 

RAP needs to learn that there is a difference between historic and charming.  Their job is to preserve history, which has in this case meant supporting higher density of residents and density of uses than we currently see today.  If they want to preserve what they believe to be a small and charming neighborhood, then they need to disband and reform as KAQ (Keep Avondale Quaint). 

I only started to single out their use of the words parking and parking lot about a quarter of the way through.  It was just so prevalent in their piece that it couldn't be ignored.  At no time did they ever suggest an alternative means of transportation. 

It is a sad day when a business owner and preservation champion is denied the opportunity to be progressive.  I would have given up if I was John, but I'm glad he has more strength than me and I hope that he realizes he'll never please RAP, so just cut your losses and continue on without their input.

 
Quote


All of us who live and do business in Riverside Avondale cherish the district?s unique historical, small-scale commercial areas.......growth, by its very nature, brings change and often comes with real costs.

We must ... paraphrase the immortal words of Joni Mitchell....
..... its intended purpose to protect the charming historic commercial corridors by encouraging small business and neighborhood-scale development. .... proposed size of the new Mellow Mushroom restaurant. ...parking... parking... parking...appropriateness of hours...parking lot to parking, loading and deliveries only.

RAP’s Recommendations
Parking
....parking....parking... parking spaces ...parking lot ....parking.


Parking Lot

....parking lot .....Parking lot use restricted to parking....parking lot

Exception for Outside Sales and Service
No music or television sound played outside or in any covered patio area after 9 p.m......parking lot......Use must be a bona-fide restaurant that serves food at all times that alcohol is being served.

Design
.....suburban design.


Tacachale

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 10:08:03 AM »
I like how they totally avoided mentioning they're encouraging Mellow to demolish a building to install a parking lot. It's a pretty sad development when a preservation society sets itself up as the defender against "parking, traffic and noise issues" rather than, you know, preservation.
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Captain Zissou

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 10:17:43 AM »
Including outside seating in the count is a ridiculous and really just a slimy move from RAP.  You know they have had this in their back pocket for a while, but they were waiting until Valentino made concessions before they added this one into the mix.  RAP is also only speculating as to how many people will be able to sit outside, but in actuality they have no idea what they are talking about.

My other favorite point that RAP made is in their 'design' recommendations.  They were the ones who suggested a 100' storefront on St Johns, and now they are opposed to their own proposal.  However, rather than actually improve the layout of the restaurant and its street interaction, they just want it to look like it's not what it is, which is a suburban design.  They're encouraging a faux-historic look instead of actual site planning and design.  Doesn't this speak volumes for the kind of organization that they have become?  They want to look the part, but the underlying substance is all fake.  They find ways to justify parking lots and demolitions, but the underlying issue is that they really know nothing about preservation beyond what types of windows should go in your house. 

The most historic and preservationist design has always been John's original design and it is the only one that addresses the larger issues of the neighborhood.

If_I_Loved_you

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 10:23:29 AM »
I like how they totally avoided mentioning they're encouraging Mellow to demolish a building to install a parking lot. It's a pretty sad development when a preservation society sets itself up as the defender against "parking, traffic and noise issues" rather than, you know, preservation.
This is not new for RAP several years ago RAP was OK with the"Riviera Parkway Apartments" being torn down. For the main apartments on the front drive into riviera are old all the way down to the river. But the not so great RAP said they had no real value for preservation. But the new builders were going to put in a couple of highrise condos and that was OK? RAP was really OK with this project because they wanted a better class of people to move to this area that has over the years come down Damn those working class people! :o

simms3

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 10:30:17 AM »
What I am envisioning is something akin to the faux stucco faux historic look Prado development across from St. Vincent's where there has really been a struggle to least the space up.

That was another project that had a denser and better looking design, but rather than being forced to the current structure it is, the market did its dirty work.  Here with MM we have the market working for the project, and the backing, but RAP is artificially killing the project into another faux stucco POS with parking in the back.

And I don't know how many business owners actually own the building they are in or if they are leased.  If I were a landlord on the strip, I would be NERVOUS and furious.  This should be obvious.  Landlords need good, paying tenants with well-backed guarantors.  RAP is chasing them away as we speak.

In SF there are extremely strict regulations on chains such as MM.  It is almost impossible to open something up with more than 5 or so locations, but it gets done because it is SF, a city where if there is a will there is a way.  This is Jacksonville...about as far from SF as it gets.  Jacksonville is frankly a city that should just take what it can get, and if you kill pockets of good (Avondale) like RAP is doing, then you're going to have a city that spirals further into decline.
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thelakelander

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Re: Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 10:34:25 AM »
Not being a Riverside resident but an advocate, from the outside looking in, what stands out to me is you have a split population base on what the community is and should strive to be.  It seems you have an older established community that would like to see things a certain way and a younger population base who's values are completely different. Taking pot shots at certain people won't resolve the core issue facing the community.  All that does is piss people off and make them more unwilling to compromise on the issues. 

Ultimately, this entire situation (and politics in general) boils down to the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  One side appears to be well organized and positioned to lobby for their position and the other side doesn't.  Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential.  However, if the population base that doesn't agree with the position of RAP and WLA wants more balance, than it will be up to it to organize, lobby and fight with the same passion of the other groups.  This theory isn't Riverside specific.  It really applies to the city in general.
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