Is the JRTC a Mistake in the Making?

[Ocklawaha]

^ the problem with that theory is a vast majority of people in Jacksonville probably see no need for the JRTC or transit at all.

as for the Greyhound Station, Mr. Blaylock told me last week that Greyhound really wants to be on Adams St..so they can get right onto I-95 NB....of course, never mind that being on Forsyth St would give them direct access from I-95 NB

I anticipated that someone would jump on the 'Greyhound really wants to be...' line of reasoning via FDOT/JTA. REALLY? I'm an old Jacksonville intercity bus supervisor and spoke with the president and CEO of GLI. He told me in no uncertain terms that GREYHOUND IS NOT DRIVING THIS THING, FDOT AND JTA ARE.

Tacachale, something EVERY citizen of Jacksonville should know is once you allow a disconnected intercity bus terminal to be built, blocks away from the side of any train, connectivity is gone. What purpose is a Transportation Center if it is not to make a trip from New York to Gainesville palatable? Amtrak to Jacksonville and Greyhound to Gainesville. Once you insert 'Gator City Taxi' between the two, you no longer have a transportation center.

Greyhound's Jacksonville ridership is around 3,200,000 annually, Amtrak is a lightweight by comparison.

I'm going to say this with every ounce of my transit pundit heart and soul, BUILD THIS STATION AND THE JRTC COLLAPSES FROM AN INTERCITY TRANSFER HUB, TO A GOOD PLACE TO CATCH A BUS TO HEMMING PLAZA!

Mayor Brown? KILL THIS PROJECT. Consolidate the entire station into the old railroad terminal, the JRTC should be the surface hub of a 4 state region somewhat larger then LaVilla.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

"It's a CENTER idiot!"

[vicupstate]

What exactly does the city think they are going to do with the rest of the Prime Osborn property once the convention center moves?  They might as well put it to good use and fill it with transit.

Also, is there currently any show/conference/convention that takes place in the Prime that couldn't fit somewhere else??  between the Hyatt, the area, the fairgrounds, metro park, not to mention facilities outside of DT, I am pretty sure we could service the current convention center schedule with other venues for a few years until the new one is built.

I was on vacation recently and maybe missed it, but is relocating the Convention Center a 'done' or even 'close to done' deal?  Last I heard there was a plan to use the old courthouse site, but still very much a proposal at this point.   

It is not, but strong arguments have been made that the convention center is not worth its investment.  Regardless of what we do in the future, I think we need to quite using the PO as a convention center.

Do you mean a NEW Convention Center is not worth the investment, or even the existing one is not worth it's expense?

[tufsu1]

Greyhound's Jacksonville ridership is around the same as JIA annually, Amtrak is a lightweight by comparison.

you're telling us the Greyhound has 6 million riders a year coming in and out of Jacksonville?  Or are you including those travelling through (that just stay on the bus)

[BackinJax05]

Typical Jacksonville: Do it ass backwards!

These geniuses need to pull their heads out of their butts & visit the West Palm Beach transportation center. There, the beautiful old Seaboard Air Line depot now serves Amtrak, Tri-Rail, Greyhound, and Palmtrans. Have been there several times and never had any problems with the vile Greyhound passengers

In West Palm Beach all passengers need to do to get from one mode of transit to another is walk down (or up) the platform, or walk over the tracks via pedestrian bridge.

[SightseerLounge]

Typical Jacksonville: Do it ass backwards!

Yes!
Jacksonville wants to keep that small town mentality, so they fail on purpose!

[thelakelander]

Here's St. Paul, MN's intermodal center project.



Eerily similar, it involves the renovation of a 1917 depot (Jax's was built in 1919) that closed in 1971 (Jax's closed in 1974). Construction began in 2010 and the project will be completed later this year.

Amtrak service begins 2012.
Local & Intercity bus service begins 2012.
LRT service begins when the Green Line opens in 2014.
Eventually, it will accommodate both commuter and high speed rail

Take a look at the site plan above and notice how compact the area is where passengers transfer between modes.

[BackinJax05]

Here's St. Paul, MN's intermodal center project.



Eerily similar, it involves the renovation of a 1917 depot (Jax's was built in 1919) that closed in 1971 (Jax's closed in 1974). Construction began in 2010 and the project will be completed later this year.

Amtrak service begins 2012.
Local & Intercity bus service begins 2012.
LRT service begins when the Green Line opens in 2014.
Eventually, it will accommodate both commuter and high speed rail

Take a look at the site plan above and notice how compact the area is where passengers transfer between modes.

This could work here, too. We all know (except the geniuses with their heads up their butts) there is more than enough room at Jacksonville Terminal to do the same thing, only better.

Jacksonville Terminal is prettier than St. Paul's. I admire what they're doing up there, but that thing looks like an oversized tomb.

[vicupstate]

Just think of the money that could be generated just from the city/JTA being able to sell the unneeded excessive land,  Plus the tax revenue that would be generated from it.  That alone would pay the costs of redesigning it and more.

[urbaknight]

The excess land can be developed into apartment buildings, at least mid-rises but of course all of you I really want to see high-rises. We could really cluster it up with true urban TOD. And with all the possible residents, another supermarket would be practical, maybe the DT post office can be relocated for pedestrians to be able to use. It would be very easy to run a trolley over to the entertainment areas. (with a pretty small space, it would be to run often)
 
Maybe it's just me but, I feel as though the city and/or JTA simply assumes that people that use public transit, don't have extra money to spend. Is that why the buses don't seem to go where people want to go?

 Is it too late to kill the current JRTC plan?

[finehoe]

Miami's version:  http://criticalmiami.com/2012/07/30/riding-metrorail-to-the-new-miami-intermodal-center-and-the-airport

[tufsu1]

^ yeah, but don't ask how much that thing cost....it somewhere in the neighborhood of the JRTC cost ($180 million) x 15

[thelakelander]

Yeah, with that peoplemover, heavy rail platform and large concrete parking deck, they spent a pretty penny.

[finehoe]

I liked this line:

the Miami Intermodal Center, which is basically a huge food court for car rental companies

[Ocklawaha]

Greyhound's Jacksonville ridership is around the same as JIA annually, Amtrak is a lightweight by comparison.

you're telling us the Greyhound has 6 million riders a year coming in and out of Jacksonville?  Or are you including those travelling through (that just stay on the bus)

Good catch TUFSU... I meant to say, Greyhounds Jacksonville ridership is around 3.2 million annually (the actual number came from the CEO of GLI). Then stupidly running on memory and not having my notes in front of me, I somehow converted that to 8 million. Look's like I picked a bad day to quit sniffing glue!

Now when we are talking about critical mass let's assume that EVERY SINGLE JTA BUS & SKYWAY PASSENGER went into the JRTC, that's right at 10 million a year, + Greyhounds 3.2 + Amtrak's 74,000 the grand total would be: 13,348,733 using the 4 new stations. That comes to 3.3 million passengers - per station - per year. THAT is why we are told that we need this huge sprawling complex of stations. The grand old terminal handled 15 million passengers a year as an average! In fact it handled several times that number during the 'Great Florida Boom' of the 1920's. For a short time it was the busiest intercity railway station in the entire world. At that time it was handling 200 daily trains, many of which were operating in as  many as 24 'sections'.  So you bought a ticket on the Florida Special and the advance FS is ready to leave the station when you walk in, in 10 minutes the FS will leave, then the 2nd FS, 3Rd FS, 4Th FS etc... At some point the station was fielding something like 50 trains per hour. ONE STATION DID THIS, NOT TWO, THREE OR FOUR. I wish this city would quit this nonsense of overbuilding fixed transit facilities so badly that they have a built in guarantee to fail. Otherwise we are doomed to add the historic railway terminal to JTA/FDOTS list of carnage.

When one station easily handled 15 million annual passengers, then JTA/FDOT comes along with this plan and claims 3.3 million passengers per station is REQUIRED or we'll have a melt down, you have to say, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. No tickee no laundry JTA.