It's a tax not a fine (Healthcare law Upheld)

[JeffreyS]

Yes it is the comeback now if you suggest anything should be in the commons then Republicans suggest something ridiculous should also be in the commons. 

[BridgeTroll]

Yes it is the comeback now if you suggest anything should be in the commons then Republicans suggest something ridiculous should also be in the commons. 

Im pretty sure Stephen himself in some long ago thread suggested free internet for all.  At the time I thought it over the top and probably unconstitutional.  Apparently I was wrong.  It IS constitutional... and if Stephen suggested it... it probably is a good idea...

[fsquid]

Obamacare is going to be a miserable failure. It simply has not a particle of a chance of achieving its objectives. It won't provide universal coverage (there will be 20-25 million left without) and it contains no mechanism for lowering costs except by lowering quality or reducing access. That means there's going to be another round, and another, and another. Live to fight another day, and come with a plan next time.

My own is French health care. Read up on it and I'm guessing a lot of you will agree. One thing you will find out if you read up is that it is vastly superior to the single-payer/single-provider model that the democrats are chasing. And its German cousin actually has a lot in common with the old Heritage proposal (which included a madate and exchanges).

[stephendare]

Obamacare is going to be a miserable failure. It simply has not a particle of a chance of achieving its objectives. It won't provide universal coverage (there will be 20-25 million left without) and it contains no mechanism for lowering costs except by lowering quality or reducing access. That means there's going to be another round, and another, and another. Live to fight another day, and come with a plan next time.

My own is French health care. Read up on it and I'm guessing a lot of you will agree. One thing you will find out if you read up is that it is vastly superior to the single-payer/single-provider model that the democrats are chasing. And its German cousin actually has a lot in common with the old Heritage proposal (which included a madate and exchanges).

I agree with you, Fsquid.  I would prefer the French System greatly.  We chose the Swiss/German system and while its a vast improvement over what we are doing right now, its no where as good as the french health care

[BridgeTroll]

Not at all... your comparison is silly...

[fsquid]

Obamacare is going to be a miserable failure. It simply has not a particle of a chance of achieving its objectives. It won't provide universal coverage (there will be 20-25 million left without) and it contains no mechanism for lowering costs except by lowering quality or reducing access. That means there's going to be another round, and another, and another. Live to fight another day, and come with a plan next time.

My own is French health care. Read up on it and I'm guessing a lot of you will agree. One thing you will find out if you read up is that it is vastly superior to the single-payer/single-provider model that the democrats are chasing. And its German cousin actually has a lot in common with the old Heritage proposal (which included a madate and exchanges).

I agree with you, Fsquid.  I would prefer the French System greatly.  We chose the Swiss/German system and while its a vast improvement over what we are doing right now, its no where as good as the french health care

This isn't even close to the German system.

[avonjax]

Let's be real about this whole thing.  We want doctors, hospitals and emergency rooms to rape us for an aspirin, a pair of cheap gloves and a crappy bed pan. After all it's free enterprise. Somebody has to rip of the government and insurance companies. We talk and talk about improvement but we really want the status quo. We are a greedy soulless society.
Let's blame O'Bama. At least someone finally took a stand. Nixon wouldn't do it, Clinton wouldn't do it and we all know Bush didn't give a crap. There were way better plans, but nobody would have a part of it. Every time a sick person goes to the emergency room without insurance, and leaves a crazy bill they can't pay, we all will pay anyway.  But at least in that situation we aren't openly aware that we are footing the bill. It's a lot more horrible to let someone make a doctor visit that costs $80 bucks instead of maybe $500 to $1000 a ER visit can easily cost. God knows if the person is poor they will probably never be able to pay the bill. So yeah letting people hang without medical coverage is a real money saver.

[NotNow]

Yes it is the comeback now if you suggest anything should be in the commons then Republicans suggest something ridiculous should also be in the commons. 

Is it your belief that the federal government will not use this new found taxing power in the future?  Even if we agree with a previous posters apparent belief that this power should be limited to "something you can die from", doesn't that leave open quite a few possibilities? 

Will you be surprised when Congress calls for "fairness" in shelter?  Can shelter be considered a "basic human right"?  Couldn't we provide clean, modern and sufficient housing to every citizen (and qualifying non-citizen) if everyone just paid their "fair share"?  All of the arguments are essentially the same aren't they?  Stop the evil mortgage companies, no more overcharging, and stop "dying in the streets" from lack of...shelter.  Does this seem ridiculous to you?  It doesn't to me.

My opinions differ from most here.  I don't consider it "greedy" or "souless" for citizens to take responsibility for their own lives.  Fifty percent of the population is not "handicapped" or "disadvantaged". 

As I have stated many times, I am not totally opposed to government sponsored universal health care, but I am opposed to the federal government doing the sponsoring.  Now we have a new and broadened "taxing power" for the feds.  I believe that they will use it.  And we continue to lose the Republic that we were entrusted with.

[JeffreyS]

I guess I feel like the government already did things like build highway systems and forced us to pay for it so there isn't a big expansion of powers here.
We continue to have free elections so the power is still with the people. We have some corit

[avonjax]

NotNow the problem is so many who want to be responsible can't. For one thing the jobs just aren't there. Sure there are a ton of jobs that pay HORRIBLE wages. Wages that the average poor person can't live on. Look at WalMart. They pay nothing and most of their employees have to have Food Stamps and Medicaid to get by. And yes they could find other work, but guess what not all jobs pay $20 an hour. Yes they could get additional training or education, but in most cases the jobs aren't there.
The large company I work for is more than doubling their staff. It's a retail job. But guess what? Most employees will be part time and make $8 to $10 an hour. No insurance and with part time hours that is not making a living wage.
I used to work for Bell South who paid a good solid middle class wage, but AT&T has all their new hires on a 3 year contract so they can fire them at will after three years and don't have to pay them as well. Many people working for AT&T make $12 an hour as opposed to $20 plus when it was Bell South. And believe me many of the jobs were very demanding and stressful. I will add that everyone that still works for them since I left, hate working for them. And these are people who loved their job 6 or 7 years ago when it was BS.
So as more and more decent paying jobs go away, and big corporations continue to make record profits and pay less and give less benefits including medical coverage the more I believe we live in a greedy and soulless society.
Almost all the tea party people I have met aren't ashamed to say they really don't care about people who are in need. They only care about themselves. I have had that said to me whether they mean it or not.
I am the first to say that people who refuse to work and just want to leech off the government are a real liability and it makes me angry too.
But we are creating a greedy society that is making it harder for honest decent people who want to work, who want to support themselves, to even earn enough to be self sufficient.
As the decent middle class jobs go so does the middle class.
I left  BellSouth because I was surplussed. Why did that happen? Because BS stockholders were not pleased with the slightly, and I mean slightly less growth for the quarter than was projected. When greedy stockholders speak hundreds lose their job. Believe me BS, at least at that time was making BILLIONS, but about 200 people hit the streets over a .00001 percentage point.
So yes I think we are a soulless greedy society.

[fsquid]

Greedy Stockholders?  As the owner of the company am I not within my rights to want growth and the coresponding increase in the value of my investment?

[JeffreyS]

I think it is great for stock holders to want growth. We have tweaked the system so that quarterly growth is everything however. Short term decisions are how executives are measured and contribute to boom and bust cycles.  the premise that our early lawmakers had that corporations had to be enclosed in endeavors that contributed to the states common good beyond just employement no longer even a thought.

[NotNow]

Avon,

I agree with you that there are many articuable cases of if not illegal labor practices, at least unethical practices.  My concern is what remedies we take in these times.  As I said previously, it is not the idea of universal health care that bothers me, it is the idea of a FEDERAL universal health care system.

[avonjax]

Greedy Stockholders?  As the owner of the company am I not within my rights to want growth and the coresponding increase in the value of my investment?

But at what cost?

[buckethead]

Let's be real about this whole thing.  We want doctors, hospitals and emergency rooms to rape us for an aspirin, a pair of cheap gloves and a crappy bed pan. After all it's free enterprise. Somebody has to rip of the government and insurance companies. We talk and talk about improvement but we really want the status quo. We are a greedy soulless society.
Greed is indeed a human trait. Prevalent in all, but more so in some than others.
Let's blame O'Bama. Is he Irish too? I thought he was Kenyan
At least someone finally took a stand. Doing "something" is not always preferable to doing nothing.
 Nixon wouldn't do it, Clinton wouldn't do it and we all know Bush didn't give a crap. FWIW, Bush gave us Medicare part D... Another money grab by an ancillary segment of the health care sector.
 
There were way better plans, but nobody would have a part of it. To which plans are you referring?

Every time a sick person goes to the emergency room without insurance, and leaves a crazy bill they can't pay, we all will pay anyway. True.
 But at least in that situation we aren't openly aware that we are footing the bill. You and I are clearly aware, therefore "we" are aware.

 It's a lot more horrible to let someone make a doctor visit that costs $80 bucks instead of maybe $500 to $1000 a ER visit can easily cost. God knows if the person is poor they will probably never be able to pay the bill. So yeah letting people hang without medical coverage is a real money saver.

This last bit is wrought with fallacy. It assumes a "poor" person will see a doctor for $80 when a similar procedure performed at the ER will cost $500 - 1000. 

I like colors. Everything in this post is simply saying "something" should be done.... ACA aka PIGPACT is something, therefore it is a good thing. I see it far differently. Not because of Obama, (I doubt he had much of a footprint on the actual legislation) but because it is a means to further fleece the (ever diminishing) middle class.