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Author Topic: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!  (Read 2707 times)

tarheels86

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2012, 09:21:14 PM »
I don't drink beer or any alcohol at all but if I was to buy beer for a friend. How long would this type of beer be good for?

What beer are you talking about?

If you buy beer for a friend knowing nothing about beer, why are you buying it in the first place? If they don't know anything about beer, why does it matter what it will taste like to them?

In general, if it is hop forward do not age it. Otherwise do whatever. Hop forward meaning bitter like an India Pale Ale.

Gonzo

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2012, 08:30:12 AM »
Great stuff, Tarheels, would love to have you guest blog on Springfield Brew Crew sometime. The great thing about beer is that we all have our own way of enjoying it. I have had aged Imperials that are fantastic when fresh, but -- in my opinion -- even  better with age on them. Its a matter of what I like opposed to what you like. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding several points, but again, beer is something different for eveyone. I merely state my thoughts and let folks go from there.

However, the question of storing beer upright or laid down is one that requires more discussion.  Lying a beer on its side for storage can, after a period of time, impart cork flavors into the beer. This can lend off flavors to your brew and that is never a good thing. Beer stored on its side also causes a greater amount of the beer to be exposed to the small pocket of air at the top of the bottle, while rare, this can contribute to a greater rate of oxidation and again produce off flavors. Many important brewers will tell you, corked beers in particular should be stored upright.

As far as the question of why to store beers; beer, like wine, gains complexity as it ages. Even a highly-hopped DIPA will benefit from aging. If, that is, you do not mind that it will lose some of it's characteristic hoppy bite. The right beer, aged properly can go from splendid to sublime with flavors so rich and decadent you will be hard pressed to call the liquid beer anymore. O’Hanlon’s Thomas Hardy’s Ale will continue to evolve for 25 years or more. Yes, it is a Barleywine, but it is exceptional. Rogue's XS is an example of a Russian Imperial Stout that gets better the longer it stays in the bottle -- I have a bottle of the 2008 just waiting for the right occassion to open.

So, if you are a hop-head and want the full on assualt of the hops -- and, believe me I do love that -- then drink your IPAs, DIPA's, and Imperials as soon as you get them. However, if you want to explore the other flavors that can be drawn out of one of these brews, be patient and let it age for a couple of years. You might be glad you did!
Born cold, wet, and crying; Gonzo has never-the-less risen to the pinnacle of the beer-loving world. You can read his dubious insights at www.JaxBeerGuy.com (click the BLOG link).

RiversideLoki

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2012, 08:37:27 AM »
Oh man, Sierra Nevada Bigfood barleywine is sooooooooooooooo good after a few years.

I had some 2008 Bigfood that I shoved in a closet and just let go. I opened it this year and it was like I died and went to heaven.
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tarheels86

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2012, 09:02:25 AM »
Great stuff, Tarheels, would love to have you guest blog on Springfield Brew Crew sometime. The great thing about beer is that we all have our own way of enjoying it. I have had aged Imperials that are fantastic when fresh, but -- in my opinion -- even  better with age on them. Its a matter of what I like opposed to what you like. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding several points, but again, beer is something different for eveyone. I merely state my thoughts and let folks go from there.

However, the question of storing beer upright or laid down is one that requires more discussion.  Lying a beer on its side for storage can, after a period of time, impart cork flavors into the beer. This can lend off flavors to your brew and that is never a good thing. Beer stored on its side also causes a greater amount of the beer to be exposed to the small pocket of air at the top of the bottle, while rare, this can contribute to a greater rate of oxidation and again produce off flavors. Many important brewers will tell you, corked beers in particular should be stored upright.

As far as the question of why to store beers; beer, like wine, gains complexity as it ages. Even a highly-hopped DIPA will benefit from aging. If, that is, you do not mind that it will lose some of it's characteristic hoppy bite. The right beer, aged properly can go from splendid to sublime with flavors so rich and decadent you will be hard pressed to call the liquid beer anymore. O’Hanlon’s Thomas Hardy’s Ale will continue to evolve for 25 years or more. Yes, it is a Barleywine, but it is exceptional. Rogue's XS is an example of a Russian Imperial Stout that gets better the longer it stays in the bottle -- I have a bottle of the 2008 just waiting for the right occassion to open.

So, if you are a hop-head and want the full on assualt of the hops -- and, believe me I do love that -- then drink your IPAs, DIPA's, and Imperials as soon as you get them. However, if you want to explore the other flavors that can be drawn out of one of these brews, be patient and let it age for a couple of years. You might be glad you did!

Every once in awhile someone will come on BeerAdvocate/RateBeer and say they've had good bottles of one year Hopslam. I don't doubt it, but I have not enjoyed any old DIPA. Yeah the Thomas Hardys vintage stuff and JW Lees barleywine are pretty much expressly made for aging and are weird exceptions. They are thinner, sweeter, and essentially unhopped compared to American barleywines like Bigfoot. I love the older JW Lees/Thomas Hardys stuff but they are very thin and sweet and honey forward and intentially show loads and loads of oxidized character which is nasty in something like Bigfoot, but works for the sweet, thinner English barleywines.

But to counter you sideways vs upright discussion, I think you'll find there is really no consensus on best way to store them, but I can assure you that at all the lambic producers in Belgium and in the best beer cellars in the world like Akkurat in Stockholm, Kulminator in Antwerp, De Heeren van Liedekercke outside Brussels; all the 750 corked and caged lambics are stored on their side. I've toured all of those cellars. At Cantillon they will store 150 bottles sideways on top of each other.

Main reason is to keep the cork wet. The cork may impart "corked" flavors to the lambic just like in wine, but that is an uncommon occurrence since cork is chose for wine expressly to expand when wet and to have a neutral taste. A "corked" off flavor is not a guarantee. It is actually the exception to the rule. For example, one of the largest wine cellars in the world is at Bern's steakhouse in Tampa, FL. They have 500,000 wine bottles in their cellar: http://www.bernssteakhouse.com/BottomMenu/WinesSpirits/tabid/58/Default.aspx

ALL of these wines are stored sideways including something like a Petrus 1964 that may be worth $3,000.

Again reason one is to keep the cork wet, expand, and not allow oxygen into the bottle ruining the wine and beer. Second is your point about the air. If the bottle is upright, then the carbon dioxide pocket is in direct contact with the cork separating it from outside air. If the cork gets dry and shrinks, then that CO2 pocket can leak and O2 can enter and ruin the beer/wine. If it is laying on it's side, the cork is wet, expanded and tight, and the CO2 pocket is laying against the glass in a long, oval bubble.

Your original reason for yeast sedimentation doesn't matter. If the bottle is laying on it's side for say 2 years, yes there will be a thin, long layer of yeast particulate along the lengthwise of the bottle. Big deal. When you are getting ready to serve the bottle (beer or wine), you put it upright in the fridge or whatever and spend a day or two letting the yeast settle back down around the punt of the bottle of the bottle.

Now if you store a wine/lambic for a very long time on its side, that yeast particulate actually gets "glued" to the side of the bottle and is called "DIESEL" at least in lambic speak. And this will not move whatsoever. Start pouring it upright and it will not mix with the bright flavors of the non yeast muddled beer/wine.

Here's more on "corked" off flavors, which in 4,000+ different beers I've reviewed, I've NEVER come across.  http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/beer-connoisseur-cellaring-article-question.20158/

In that discussion, yes there is no 100% agreement but the head lambic blenders at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon store them sideways and that is their entire livelihood. Why would they jeopardize their entire business if "corked" flavors are as common as you think they are?

Captain Zissou

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2012, 09:08:09 AM »
I have only heard to store beers with corks on their sides and I have never had issues with 'cork notes'. The cork will definitely dry out and ruin your beer if it is left upright for too long. As far as the unsightly yeast ring goes, get over it, its beer. If you want aesthetics, go drink wine. Last month I had a bottle of whiskey barrel aged Old Rasputin anniversary ale that I had been aging since 2009 and it was glorious. It was probably one of the best beers I have ever had in my life.

As for bud light, it's like the mcdonalds cheeseburger of beers. It will sit in a can unchanged for decades if the temperature is right.

tarheels86

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2012, 09:17:26 AM »
For special lambics and special wines, I've found it is much more common for an old vintage bottle to simply be a dud rather than corked. Lambics are living and breathing organisms their entire life with a mega mix of critters growing in there. Some sort of ratio of lactobacillus, pediococcus, and brettanomyces strains create that special, unique flavor profile. But overtime, these organisms will eat, albeit very slowly, the small remaining sugar that is purposely dumped into a Geuze/Gueuze when they blend a 1 year, 2 year, and 3 year old unblended lambic. Since those bugs take YEARS to ferment beer rather than weeks with saccharomyces, brewer's yeast, the 1 Year lambic unblended still has residual sugar and it's inclusion is essentially in lieu of priming sugar or brite yank sugar that is added to a normal living beer before bottling to induced natural carbonation, i.e. bottle refermentation.

That one year lambic's residual sugar from incomplete fermentation will produce the carbonation in geuze, but also allow more complexities to arise over years and years. But our tasting group has sampled the best lambics in the world multiple times and even these beers that *can* be aged indefinitely in a scientific sense, taste-wise, will decline after 10 year even 5-6 years. Some geuzes are even best right when they are released believe it or not. Fresh, grapefruity notes may disappear or strengthen with age. Their is no way to predict their aging, you just have to drink them. But overtime, the funkiness to turn more like wet mushroom or heavy solvent/minerals vs. what is desired like moldy white grapefruit peel and wet leather and horse blanket (fermenting hay) [yes, those are normal lambic descriptors]. So really the worst off flavor you can expect with a older geuze 8-10 years is going to be something like wet mushroom or minerals. Corked I assure you is not one of them.

PeeJayEss

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2012, 10:05:24 AM »
ALL of these wines are stored sideways including something like a Petrus 1964 that may be worth cost $3,000.

I fixed that for you  :P
Thanks for the breakdown though.

tarheels86

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2012, 11:31:26 AM »
ALL of these wines are stored sideways including something like a Petrus 1964 that may be worth cost $3,000.

I fixed that for you  :P
Thanks for the breakdown though.

Sorry, $8,000:http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Chateau-La-Fleur-Petrus-Bordeaux-RP-92-/220945890781?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337166bddd#ht_3446wt_1115

RockStar

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Re: BEER:30 Opens on King Street!
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2012, 11:59:47 AM »
Referring to a wine or beer as corked doesn't mean the cork has imparted any flavor, but rather that oxygen has gotten in while it was stored. It's why you look at the cork of a wine bottle, that is, if you see lines of wine up the side, then you know air got in.

(Especially tannic corks can also "cork" a bottle, but more often than not, improper sealing/storage/transport is the issue.)